Double edge blade in California

cpk

cpk

Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
375
Hi everyone. I have researched quite a bit on legality of carrying double edged blades in Ca. It appears that it is ok now that any instrument that is capable of great bodily injury is considered a dagger. I also researched Jim March's site and came to the same conclusion.
However in taking to local leo and border patrol officer in my ma class, they say they are not legal to carry. I have printed out the amended Section 12020 to show them. Also P vs Mowatt, and P vs Sisneros for them to read.
Please correct me if I am wrong or have misunderstood these laws. It seems like leo aren't up to date on current amendments, which could present problems to the law abiding citizens. Your comments are greatly appreciated.
 
I don't think you have misunderstood. This is a common problem. LEO's are often not fully informed about all laws. Believe me it is nearly an impossible task. Laws are always changing and new ones are being added. Unfortunately you could be in the right and still get arrested. Having a copy of the law with you would certainly help, but doesn't necessarily mean you wouldn't be charged by an overzealous officer that doesn't understand the law in question.
 
Shootist16, Thanks alot for replying to this post. I am going to show the leo's this week the knife law info. They were very, very interested in seeing it. It will be very interesting too see how they interpet the new law. They are evidently going by the old laws. Now if I can get them to see the light. how about the department? I will get back too you and let all of you know how it went.
I am sure it will take awhile to get a reply. In the mean time if anyone else has come across this situation, please reply. Once again thanks alot!
 
Hi CPK,

I would say to them that nowhere in California law are double-edged blades referred to. There is no language anywhere regarding "double-edged" or "blade sharpened on both sides" or any other language specific to a double edged blade. If that's not good enough for the officer, politely ask for the supervisor so you can demonstrate using his or her copy of the Penal Code that there's no law against double-edged blades.

As you said in your post, the true definition of "dirk or dagger" is a broad definition that applies not only to knives but to other instruments as well, such as screwdrivers. So long as you're not in violation of the prohibition against a concealed dirk or dagger, you're OK on the double-edged issue.

Note that there's a very small chance that a local (city or county) law covers a double-edged blade. I haven't seen such a provision, but I would look up your local weapons ordinances in any case. You can find them at your county law library, or you can look up a good number of them online. Try this page: http://www.bpcnet.com/#CA.

Most law enforcement officers don't know or try to enforce local knife laws, but there's a certain percent who are knowledgable about them, so prepare yourself on the local level as well.

Regards,

Johnny
 
Thanks JohnnyLightOn,
That is a really great website for information in your hometown. Everyone should bookmark this one. I did not see anything in county version for knives. It was in the acrobat form though. It referred to pc 12000. I guess this must indicate that it refers to state law. I presented my material to leo this week. I will get back to everyone regarding the outcome. Once again thanks for your help! If anyone else has an opinion it would be most welcome.
 
Been a LEO for over 14 years, a supervisor for over 3 years. The confrontational attitude that is demonstrated in this thread would ensure a trip to the station.

Per California Penal Code, Section 12020:

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

Guys you are right! Does not specify a double edged blade. It basically says, anything that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon CAN BE classified as a "dirk" or "dagger."

Real world application:

LEO stops suspected Bad Guy (BG) with a toothbrush that has a sharpened end or a sharpened "screwdriver". Please don't ask, "How many times does that really happen?" It does all the time.

If you are not doing something you shouldn't, this really should never be a problem. I know sometimes "overzealous cops" will book anyone who remotely fits into a violator of the law classification, so I am not going to respond to, "What about my friend... or any other what if" questions. I wasn't there any obviously there was a District Attorney or City Attorney and a judge who thought enough about the case/arrest to procede.

Knowledge is power. HOWEVER, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Quite blaming street cops for not knowing every law in the Penal Code, it is a REALLY BIG book! They also have to know, the Vehicle Code, Municipal Code, Welfare & Institutions Code, Health & Safety Code... shall I go on??!!

Be polite, don't look for trouble, and follow the law to the best of your ability and I doubt you will get into trouble.

:)
 
Surfing Ronin,

While I appreciate your experienced input into this thread, if you think this there a "confrontational attitude" from anyone on this thread, then maybe you've been on the job too long! No one suggested anything but politeness. If we are not breaking the law, when a law enforcement officer suggests otherwise, what do you suggest we do?

Most street LEOs do not know the intricacies of the law. Please let us know the best way to deal with this situation. If you feel this has a confrontational tone so far, I cannot imagine what a citizen can possibly do to maintain his or her rights and explain why his or her conduct is legal, short of saying nothing and immediately asking for an attorney. That approach would help no one and do nothing but waste everyone's time and money.

On another front, even though 12020 PC does contain a broad definition of "concealed dirk or dagger," a locking, one hand opening folder is not a concealed dirk or dagger even if it has a double-edged blade. So I can take my locking folder and sharpen the false edge and carry that knife concealed without violating 12020. In the definition of "concealed dirk or dagger" in Section 12020 at 12020(c)(24), there is an exception for knives not prohibited by 653k. 653k exempts most one-hand locking folders. Whether it has a double-edged blade or not doesn't matter. A close friend is an LAPD sergeant. He regularly lets people go who have been arrested for 12020. The field officers see a concealed knife and they automatically think "concealed knife = 12020" without knowing the exceptions.

Please respond re what the best thing we citizens can to in this situation. Maintaining a low profile as you suggest is helpful, of course, but what do we do once a LEO thinks we have an illegal knife when we are actually carrying legally?

Johnny
 
Well, let's put our thinking caps on here.

The context in which the law was passed as I understand it was during the late 1800's or thereabouts. Back then, law enforcement wasn't trying to keep farmers and hunters from using time honored tools.

They were concerned primarily with shady characters in San Francisco (the major population center in California at the time, maybe Sacramento, and the odd town or two carrying concealed daggers (double edged), boot knives, and bowie-type knives. These are all capable of inflicting great bodily harm. The law, although it may appear vague by today's standards, is consistent with the language found in many laws passed in the 19th century as they were more oriented toward plain English, rather than lawerly mincing.

Most older laws are not updated to "modern" English because opening up the books to change these laws is generally not a high political priority, they generally just get added-to.

I realize that much of what I have said here is completely unscholarly, and is a blend of a little bit of factual knowledge, a little bit of history, a bit of my experience in my own profession and with attorneys and a bit of deductive reasoning.

If you are out and about with a double-edged blade, you will have a very hard time convincing anyone that you need such a knife for cutting up cardboard boxes.
 
Originally posted by Architect
If you are out and about with a double-edged blade, you will have a very hard time convincing anyone that you need such a knife for cutting up cardboard boxes.
Click to expand...

This doesn't matter if the conduct is legal. Don't forget where you live--in a free country! This is not the (former) Soviet Union, or a country like Mexico, for that matter. Citizens are not sheep here, and legal conduct needs no explanation. This doesn't mean I don't support law enforcement and advocate cooperation and assistance from the citizenry whenever possible. I work with law enforcement agencies on a regular basis; they are my biggest customers. But I understand what rights the citizens have as well.

Johnny
 
CA knife laws aren't too bad, and they're not that vague. Boiled down, they are basically two categories, fixed and folders. Absolutely no fixed blades can be carried concealed, period. Fixed blades must be open carry. There are no retrictions on blade length for fixed blades unless you're carrying them onto school or JC/college grounds, then other rules apply. Folders of any length may be carried concealed or not at the state level. Local city or county ordinances may vary. No automatics may be carried with a blade length longer than 2 inches, thus the CA legal autos were born. Balisongs have been associated in court cases with gravity knives, but there are quite a few cases that were dismissed because of that error, but you'll still get a balisong confiscated by an LEO anyway!

Hank:cool:
 
Surfing Ronin,
Thanks for replying to this thread. I really appreciate your years of service as a leo. However I feel you really
:footinmou on this one. How does this thread seem confrontational to you? And most likely would this attitude get us a trip to the station? Aren't people innocent until proven guilty? What are we guilty of? A honest, decent , intelligent conversation?
I do agree with you, there are quite a bit of laws to know. But this was your choice to protect and serve the community. The ones that pay your salary. So it up to you to stay as current as possible. I would think that weapons laws would be one of the many important to stay current with. This is because a perp would try to hurt you and you wouldn't want to charge him with a false charge. Somewhere I heard that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Don't take any of this personal. We as civilians just want to know our rights. :)
 
I may have interpreted this incorrectly,

Originally posted by JohnnyLightOn
Hi CPK,...If that's not good enough for the officer, politely ask for the supervisor so you can demonstrate using his or her copy of the Penal Code that there's no law against double-edged blades.
Click to expand...

And as such, I perceived the entire thread as confrontational. For that I apologize.

But, this statement just annoys me all over again.

Originally posted by cpk
...But this was your choice to protect and serve the community. The ones that pay your salary. So it up to you to stay as current as possible...
Click to expand...

Yes, I choose to be a cop, and I carry the title "public servant" but that doesn't mean the community owns me or that I'm their whipping boy. My wife claims ownership on me and you know what, both she & I pay for my salary too!

I don't think I've been on the job too long, but maybe I need a vacation! :p It's hard not to take some of these comments personally, I am the one they are directed to; of course only "the cop" me.

JohnnyLightOn, If your friend the sergeant (my same rank) is letting 12020 arrests go on a regular basis, he really needs to conduct some training with his troops on what is a legal & valid arrest.

Bottom line, I actually love intelligent conversation and I support legal knife carry & firearm ownership. I support the issuance of CCW's to all who qualify, not just those who justify their need. Guys, I think it is great that people know their rights and it is important to protect them! If I were stopped, arrested, and charged with a crime, I wouldn't say a damn thing. I would just ask for my lawyer.

HankS pretty much hit it on the head. The only other thing I would add is ANY FOLDING KNIFEthat is opened, locked or not, is readily accessible, and is concealed is also illegal.

Lets get together for a beer and show off our knives!
:D
 
Hi Surfing Ronin,

I think I might have chosen my words poorly. I recognize that the cop on the street has probably the toughest job there is. When I've had interactions with street cops, most have gone well, some have not, but in all but one circumstance I've been polite and respectful of all the concerns officers have towards their public interactions (the exception was when I got a ticket for a red light violation because the officer was mad that I honked at an old woman; he knew the light was yellow when I went through).

When I said "if that's not good enough for the officer," it was not meant to imply an attitude. I should have said, "Politely let the officer know that you believe you are carrying legally, and offer to support your statement with references to the Penal Code. If that's not successful, then politely ask for the supervisor so you can make the same case to him or her." The phrase "if that's not good enough for the officer" was just a shorthand; I apologize for sending the thread on the wrong path with those words.

I'm very glad to see your views on citizens, guns/knives, and rights. I'm glad you're a cop, and that you supervise and educate other cops.

I wish that my LAPD sergeant friend could help educate the street cops in his division on the law, but he's been their watch commander (on numerous occasions) because he's filling in for the lieutenants (?) who normally have that job. He's assigned to a more specific task that only involves the direct supervision a very few field officers.

Best regards,

Johnny
 
I forgot about that aspect, Surfin Ronin! Or should I say I assumed that we carry folders folded! But you're right, a folder in it's open position, regardless whether it locks open, is readily accessible and falls under the fixed blade laws for no concealment.

I really wish they'd sh*tcan the knife laws and just make them illegal for felons to carry. That'd empower the LEO's to be able to arrest some gangbanger with pocket clip showing if he's got a felony on his rap sheet! We should also go to a "shall issue" system for ccw here as well, with the same restrictions. I still believe in the quote, "an armed society is a polite society!"

Hank:cool:
 
:)

Guys, I really hope I didn't come across as a big AdamHenry, for those of you who don't know, that's cop speak for A$$hole. Can I say that here? ;)

Johnny & HankS, you too cpk, have made for an excellent discussion and have taught me a thing or two. :)

I won't doubt for one minute that traffic tickets are issued everyday by angry cops. I don't approve of it, but each case has to be examined on it's on merits, or lack there of.

HankS, absolutely brother! A few years ago :rolleyes: I worked in a division that had a HIGH number of out of state truckers. Quite a few carried firearms with them for protection. When they were lost in the division, I would give them a ride back to their rigs. Of course I would ask if they had any weapons and ALL of the truly good ones would admit they were carrying. The only harrassment they would get from me, was when they said they weren't members of the NRA! :)
 
Surfin Ronin, thanks for replying. I am sorry if I came on little to strong. I like I said don't take it personal. I guess we all have a keyword we are all a little sensitive too.
It's great to know we have great leo such as yourself. You seem to support the same ideas and beliefs alot of us have here. It is good to have a forum to intelligently discuss important issues.
I see you have quite a nice assortment of knives. Do you carry any on duty? When do you carry your fb?
Anyway good luck in your career and stay safe :)


By the way guys I will be posting a follow up soon to my discussion with local leo's.
 
In reading through this thread I realize why I love being in the knife business so much.

Great discussion.

In our dealings with the CA District Attys Assoc it seemed the biggest irritant for them was having to let known perps back on the streets, and then have to give them back their weapons... I know it must be frustrating to almost have to watch a crime be committed before you can make something stick to a bad guy.

Our goal was to protect law abiding citizens right to carry man's oldest tool.

We worked on the amendment to 12020 to ensure that folders were not considered part of the law. We also worked on the amendment to 653k to exempt one handers from switchblade laws. When you talk gravity and centrifugal force knives it is so subjective. Eventually all knives will open with enough centrifugal force...

I am President currently of AKTI (american knife and tool institut) We get some requests for legal help from folks that have gotten sideways in the legal system and lost their knives. In every case so far the actions prior and after their arrest made all the difference. The knife law was the excuse. Politeness and humility go a long way.

Surfin, while I do agree you were a little too sensitive at the beginning it is so great to watch how real communication took over as the thread progressed. I agree with a previous post that we are glad such a reasonable and real guy is on the force.

CPK I would be intersted in the feedback you get fron the officers.
 
I'm finding this thread fascinating. One guy in the thread points out that officers need to be able to pull in guys carrying sharpened screwdrivers - the others try to justify carrying blades "because they don't break the word of the law". But are you breaking the <i>intent</i> of the law?
If you do some research into duelling with swords, you will find that stabbing someone with a sharp object is a good way to kill them - but a lousy way to <i>stop</i> them. Better to whack them on the head with a weighted umbrella! So why carry a sharp-pointed knife? A knife with NO point, (but an edge like a straight-razor) would be a better self-defense weapon - and you would more likely give someone a nasty, incapacitating wound with it than kill them.
We have draconian knife laws in England, because a schoolkid stabbed a teacher (and killed him). So 2 months after that happened, a friend's friend was arrested, charged and found guilty for possession of illegal knives. What was he doing? Walking home after work, with his chef's knives wrapped up in a bundle under his arm. He still had his uniform on! The officers who arrested him went by the letter of the law - but ignored the intent.
 
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