I have a Knights of Columbus fraternal sword and one other from some organization. Basically these are just like long daggers. My question is were such swords ever used by any country, at any time in history other than as decorations? I like them atheistically and ergonomically, but they look like they would be expensive to produce in any volume as users.
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Double edged Fraternal type swords
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horseclover
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There have been some recent threads regarding these forms. In America, they kind of started off with the militia patterns, predominately manufactured through Ames and Horstmann from the 1840s, then well beyond. The basic form was adopted to many fraternities.
Here I show mine, as collected over the past few years with a link to a rather long thread elsewhere concerning the general pattern.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Some-American-Militia-Centurion-Pommel-Swords
More recently there was another sword id here at BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...What-kind-of-sword-is-this-Price-on-the-sword
The sword of that thread was a higher price spread and used frequently by militia officers. The simpler ones shown in the other thread linked regards the nco variety from which the fraternal swords were born.
If you search Ebay for militia sword, you will come across a variety. The plainer swords continued into the 20th century, so subtypes are expansive even amongs those not strictly fraternal. There were hundreds of miltary associations that sprung up after the American Civil War and some of the others regarded as fraternal orders, also branches off the same tree of the ACW.
The older swords will have typically have wider blades and what is regarded as the militia 1850 will usually have a blade 23"-26" long. My Ames versions from the 1840s are even shorter blades in the 20" range. As you say, almost dirk like. These older prewar swords are actually quite stout, while the post war swords really more ceremonial, with lighter castings and pretty slim blades as long as 31" of blade (many later ones 27")
The strictly fraternal swords are a vast array of types and decorations. Up into the ACW period, some of the regular sword types were used by the Free Masons and Odd Fellows (for just two instances/examples). There is often confusion both ways in regarding what one might see.
Hope that helps a bit. The threads linked should be useful in further research for you.
Cheers
GC
Here I show mine, as collected over the past few years with a link to a rather long thread elsewhere concerning the general pattern.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Some-American-Militia-Centurion-Pommel-Swords
More recently there was another sword id here at BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...What-kind-of-sword-is-this-Price-on-the-sword
The sword of that thread was a higher price spread and used frequently by militia officers. The simpler ones shown in the other thread linked regards the nco variety from which the fraternal swords were born.
If you search Ebay for militia sword, you will come across a variety. The plainer swords continued into the 20th century, so subtypes are expansive even amongs those not strictly fraternal. There were hundreds of miltary associations that sprung up after the American Civil War and some of the others regarded as fraternal orders, also branches off the same tree of the ACW.
The older swords will have typically have wider blades and what is regarded as the militia 1850 will usually have a blade 23"-26" long. My Ames versions from the 1840s are even shorter blades in the 20" range. As you say, almost dirk like. These older prewar swords are actually quite stout, while the post war swords really more ceremonial, with lighter castings and pretty slim blades as long as 31" of blade (many later ones 27")
The strictly fraternal swords are a vast array of types and decorations. Up into the ACW period, some of the regular sword types were used by the Free Masons and Odd Fellows (for just two instances/examples). There is often confusion both ways in regarding what one might see.
Hope that helps a bit. The threads linked should be useful in further research for you.
Cheers
GC
Thank you very much for the input. I'd forgotten about the Odd Fellows and the hundred or so organizations that used swords in some ceremonially way. If you attempted to use swords in a contemporary organization, everyone and their dog would be offended. Different world.
horseclover
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The current new testament for fraternal swords is the book authored by Hamilton, Marino and Kaplan. Assembled and edited by Hamilton, with a forward by Norm Flayderman, the combined collections of Marino and Kaplan show some 2,000 flavors of fraternal swords spanning near 100 organizations. The book is not complete in the vast scope of swords still needing explanations.
http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/ham_mar_kap.html
Along with the sword galleries are comprehensive chapters of the symbology and decoration of different groups. There is yet another chapter on the making of the swords and more with a list of makers and retailers.
Hamilton's book on the History of Ames is still in demand, although a bit dated. However, it is a tome that shows the beginnings of American manufacture of fraternal sword use.
I have also re-hosted an older 1979 Man At Arms article (courtesy of www.oldswords.com ) regarding fraternal swords penned by Hamilton
http://files.myopera.com/3sails/files/Swords of the Masonic Orders-v1i3Hamiltoncopy.pdf
There are several lists for fraternal orders and their acronyms and several good web pages but the title linked above really the most comprehensive view of them as of this date.
Regarding real use, those earlier militia swords with broader blades are quite capable as effective pokers and could certainly open up serious lacerations , with the Ames swords at least sword sharp of lenticular cross section capable of being honed to a keener edge. The post American Civil War swords becoming more and more simply an ornament. Several of the groups did practice rudimentary swordsmanship though, along with pike drills along with other activities.
Cheers
GC
http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/ham_mar_kap.html
Along with the sword galleries are comprehensive chapters of the symbology and decoration of different groups. There is yet another chapter on the making of the swords and more with a list of makers and retailers.
Hamilton's book on the History of Ames is still in demand, although a bit dated. However, it is a tome that shows the beginnings of American manufacture of fraternal sword use.
I have also re-hosted an older 1979 Man At Arms article (courtesy of www.oldswords.com ) regarding fraternal swords penned by Hamilton
http://files.myopera.com/3sails/files/Swords of the Masonic Orders-v1i3Hamiltoncopy.pdf
There are several lists for fraternal orders and their acronyms and several good web pages but the title linked above really the most comprehensive view of them as of this date.
Regarding real use, those earlier militia swords with broader blades are quite capable as effective pokers and could certainly open up serious lacerations , with the Ames swords at least sword sharp of lenticular cross section capable of being honed to a keener edge. The post American Civil War swords becoming more and more simply an ornament. Several of the groups did practice rudimentary swordsmanship though, along with pike drills along with other activities.
Cheers
GC
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Thanks again, there were thousands of these and the prices are all over the place. Fascinating that the entire industry seems to have stopped dead in it's tracks at some point.
Were I a sword maker, I think make some out of modern materiel and a little more functional. I think they might sell. I know I'd like one.
Were I a sword maker, I think make some out of modern materiel and a little more functional. I think they might sell. I know I'd like one.
horseclover
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A lot of the society activity came to an end simply because technologies coming along. There are some 10,000,000 members of various groups listed n 1907 and that was probably the peak. Cinema, radio, other things coming along to create something else to do after work. WWI, no doubt, another chapter ending many groups. Some still remain and still use swords for ceremony, pomp & circumstance.
Disturbingly, there are actually reproductions popping up and Atlanta Cutlery has at least one offering. It is true that prices are all over the place but there are still a lot of swords coming out of basements and attics. A collection of regalia that includes the person's history can command a premium but far, far more of them are simply overpriced for what they are.
As far as the military swords, certain patterns survived but not so really the militia use of swords (especially the helmet heads). What we get then is the National Guard instead. The Ames catalogs still carried them into the 1880s and were listed as military association swords. Those groups often veterans of the ACW, Indian Wars and the Spanish/American war. There is the Ancient and Honorable Artillery group but those swords a whole 'nother story. Philadelphia Light Horse, again some persisted in a more militaristic vein.
Up until very recently, The Ames Sword Company was still marketing fraternal swords and I believe Pettibone continues the trade but these are all ceremonial swords, no more functional than the current India wave. Functional is a bit of frame of mind as well. All could kill, all are meant for decoration/ceremony. None of the new stuff particularly suited for anything serious but thrusting
I have walked past this group of tables a couple of times and the pile keeps growing
There is currently a heavy guard wide blade example on Ebay (search militia sword) but it is overpriced, albeit a good sound looking example. I tend to be a bottom feeder and look for the bargains being ignored or mislabeled.
Happy Hunting
GC
Disturbingly, there are actually reproductions popping up and Atlanta Cutlery has at least one offering. It is true that prices are all over the place but there are still a lot of swords coming out of basements and attics. A collection of regalia that includes the person's history can command a premium but far, far more of them are simply overpriced for what they are.
As far as the military swords, certain patterns survived but not so really the militia use of swords (especially the helmet heads). What we get then is the National Guard instead. The Ames catalogs still carried them into the 1880s and were listed as military association swords. Those groups often veterans of the ACW, Indian Wars and the Spanish/American war. There is the Ancient and Honorable Artillery group but those swords a whole 'nother story. Philadelphia Light Horse, again some persisted in a more militaristic vein.
Up until very recently, The Ames Sword Company was still marketing fraternal swords and I believe Pettibone continues the trade but these are all ceremonial swords, no more functional than the current India wave. Functional is a bit of frame of mind as well. All could kill, all are meant for decoration/ceremony. None of the new stuff particularly suited for anything serious but thrusting
I have walked past this group of tables a couple of times and the pile keeps growing
There is currently a heavy guard wide blade example on Ebay (search militia sword) but it is overpriced, albeit a good sound looking example. I tend to be a bottom feeder and look for the bargains being ignored or mislabeled.
Happy Hunting
GC
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2012
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