...DUPED?

pm

pm

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Oct 11, 1998
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i do not know if this topic is in the right catagory but it does involve a custom maker and perhaps answers to my dilema may be found.

i ordered a knife from this maker LAST YEAR of OCT 97. i prepaid in full. he promised delivery in 8-12 weeks. well it is over a year later and still no knife. i have been very polite and courteous with inquiries over the phone and via letters. i received one callback and one letter apologizing for the delays about 9 months after the intial order. nothing had been heard from that camp since then. i have formally requested a refund thru a letter and recently another phone call. i cannot get thru to this maker person to person in my last 3-4 attempts over a span of the last 2 months. when calling over the phone it is always to his answering machine or assisant(who "knows nothing, sees nothing, cannot do anything to help").

i have been polite, patient, but now need to find a resolution to this senario. this maker is not a member of the guild but seemed reputable and very cordial, but have i been duped? i have spoken with others who have dealt with this gentleman in the past and they all have had their orders delivered with in the promised time frame.

LES, any suggestions as to what i might do? thanks.

------------------

 
Hi neighbor!

Well, what could I recommend? The first thing is, you shouldn’t have prepaid that guy in full. I don’t know why he asked for the money up front, but this is in contrast to my experience in the custom world. Depending on the final price, the maximum I pay is 25%-30%. And what you should get in any case is a written and signed contract saying: ‘I (the maker) got X amount of money for a knife delivered to (the customer) within (the time).’ With that paper you can go to any lawyer and sue the maker if he doesn’t fulfill his commitment.
If you don’t have anything written, it’s hard to do anything about it. Keep calling the maker, insist on talking to him directly and ask for the reason of the delay. Also mention, that you want your money back, if the knife doesn’t arrive within a reasonable amount of time. If that still doesn’t work, just mention you will post his name on this and the other forum. That should put some pressure on him.

I whish you still get your knife,
Ralf
 
Hi PM,

First, post this makers name! Shame him into fullfilling his commitment. This is the place to post such makers names, so others can be warned.

Next if this is a memeber of the US Knifemakers Guild, send a letter to:

Al Pendray
President, US Knifemakers Guild
Rt. 2 Box 1950
Williston FL 32696

Explain the circumstances to Al of what happened. He can inform you of the address's of the other makers on the Board of Directors, (Mel Pardue VP, Steve Jernegan, Bob Terzuola, Billy Imel (treasurer) and I belive there is one other that escapes me at this time.

They will contact the maker and have the maker either deliver the knife or send you your money.

Unfortunately, to many makers do this. My attorney is right now sending a letter to Al Pendray. As he order and paid in full for a knife from Ernie Emerson over 3 years ago. It was promised in 6 months. Unfortunately, many of us are all to familiar with this story. Well Boys and Girls, Emerson is now in the Guild, so feel free to contact any of the above individuals if you have problems. This is true with any knife maker in the Guild.

Howard Viele is another maker that people are having problems with. I hand carried one of my customers to Bob Terzuola this weekend at the New York Show to discuss this very problem.

It's funny how some makers cant deliver their knives on time, and always have one excuse after another. But magically can have between 5 - 10 knives at a show to sell. I know if I had a knife on order from one of these guys and it had been put off years, I might be just a little upset.

Another solution is to contact your post office. If you sent the payment through the mail you can contact the postal inspectors. If they determine that fraud has been committed through the mail, it will be a nightmare for your knife making friend.

Contact the Better Business Bureau. Chances are the maker wont be associated with them. But for potential future legal action it shows youve covered all the bases. Additionally, if someone does check with them a complaint will be on file. Who knows, may cost your knife maker friend a sale!

As Ralf says, never ever give a maker all the money up front....EVER! Never give more than a 10% deposit. The only exception to this is if you are having some "Super" piece being made for "YOU". Then the maker is within their rights to ask for all the money up front, as they may never be able to sell it to someone else.

Here is the problem in a nutshell. You give maker A all the money up front. Maker A spends all the money before he even starts making your knife. Maker A then finally gets around to your turn for a knife. The problem is he spent all of your money and there are still bills to pay. So he makes that new order of the person who hasnt paid yet. That way Maker A gets money to pay bills. Unfortunately, Maker A never gets ahead on his bills, consequently, he doesnt want to make your knife. Maker A doesnt want to make a knife for "Free". I know it sounds strange, but thats how some of the makers think. By now your probably starting to understand why you are not getting your knife and probably never will.

Everyone has problems and when you work for yourself it only gets more complicated as you are the only one doing the work.

Ok, first send him a registered letter. Explain to him the steps you are going to take.

1 contact him thru registered letter he has 48 hours to respond.

2) Your next contact will be Al Pendray if he
is a Guild Member and Joe Cordova if he is in the ABS American Blade Smith Society. Contact both if he is a member of both.

3) The US Postal Inspectors to file charges against him for fraud.

4) Your Lawyer, which is why you sent this registered letter, for proof of your final contact with him.

5) Tell him at this point you are no longer interested in the knife and want your money back.

Like it or not fellow collectors makers like this are the ones we need to remove from custom knife making.

Les
 
Les and Ralf thanks for the courses of action! i will implement them ASAP. let's see if this maker complies...
 
While sad that it has to come to this point, often the way to "light a fire" under the makers rear, so to speak, it to mention who it is. This has been done on other forums and produces an almost intstant satisfactory response.

So... who is it? :-)


--Doug
 
hi doug,

i did not want to go the distance and "burn" this maker's name until i gave him one more chance via a formal letter. i will post the out come next week. i hope he complies.
 
PM,
That's very gracious of you to give the knifemaker in question another chance at this point to make things right with you. If he still doesn't do so, then he would deserved to have his name exposed here. Looking forward to the results. Here's hoping it's a win/win situation.

-Greg

[This message has been edited by grnamin (edited 11-12-98).]
 
I usually don't order a custom knife unless I have all the money up front and until now I always wanted to pay off the knife and not worry about holding onto the money. After reading Les' comments I understand why he told me onece that I didn't need to pay 100% up front. Thankfully the maker we were discussing is a super guy and held up his end even though he had all the money. From now on I will take Les' advice and only pay the required deposit.
Lewis
 
I know custom makers who do not take deposits, and I am one of them. I prefer not to have the responsibility of carrying the money, for fear I get behind because of some external issue.

I have only asked for a deposit once, and that was to cover the steel and handle materials for a knife that I thought would be hard to sell if the customer changed his mind. Given that the deposit caused him to change his mind, it was probably a good call.

I have had people who wanted to pay up front for knives. I have declined their offer so that I can work on the piece without the pressure of the money in my pocket. For me, the order alone is pressure enough.

Just my opinion,

Matt
 
While I wouldn't normally have any problems paying 100% up front to a maker for a custom piece, the only problem I have is with motivation.

As a study of human nature, I fully understand and see daily that if people are given the reward (payment) in full up front, the motivation to complete the job starts to fade as time goes by. If they know that payment is not going to be available until the product is completed to satisfaction, things tend to happen a little sooner.

You see this everywere, getting your car fixed, eating out, etc.

The folks with the strong integrity are the ones that can do a 100% either way. I think that only comes with having done it a 'long time.

If a maker has to go out any buy some crazy stuff or an unusual amount/type of material because of a project you ordered, I think a 50% deposit is not unreasonable. Maybe the full 50% would not be required until the maker was actually going to begin on the project.

I also know that many makers do it for the love of the craft and they aren't exactly doing it to buy a second home in Malibu. If I sense that the money is tight and thus buying the supplies can be difficult, I'll gladly help out with larger deposit if it helps get the ball rolling.


--Doug
 
In the experiences I have had, it depends on what I am ordering, how long it will take and if I am asking the maker to carry the cost of some expensive materials or not until the knife is ready. I have been lucky to have developed relationships before or during the discussion/design phase and truly do not want to have a negative impact on the cash flow of a maker/friend. I have never had an inkling of a problem with someone I knew when I have paid for expenses as they were incurred or by putting a decent deposit on a unique knife that was designed with my input. One of the special things I enjoy is the trust that is evident in this "industry" and it disturbs me when a customer, dealer or maker violates that trust. I hope things work out for you with the least amount of hassle. If I am having a user made of standard material I would be a little wary of putting a deposit down of more than 10 % or so. If I am asking for something that takes a lot of time and expensive materials, I think it is proper to establish that trust and to work things out so that the maker is confident that his work will be rewarded on time again without having a negative effect on their cash flow. There are way too many honest makers out there to be having to deal with the few flashes in the pan that do not follow through. I am sorry that you had the sour experience and hope it does not jade your thoughts towards the Custom area of knives, which can provide lifelong friendships as well as beautiful additions to a collection.

Gus
"Just another knife nut in Atlanta"

 
The above posts are well written good advice. I would add one thought: use a credit card.

I have bought several thousands of dollars of knives over the past year or so, and have been extremely happy with all my purchases. I have even sent certified checks to some well reputed people in the knife industry, such as Les Robertson and A. T. Barr, and have been happy with their service and goods.

I did have one unfortunate incident about 9 months ago. I ordered two handmade knives from a dealer, they arrived, and I felt them to be faulty. I asked for, and got, permission to return them for repair, did so promptly, but then spent the next two months trying to get the knives back.

I finally lost patience, and asked the dealer to cancel the order and refund my money. He agreed to do so by e-mail, then reneged.

Fortunately, I had used a credit card to pay for the knives. I contacted my credit card company and instituted a dispute process, which has just recently been completed. The dealer changed his position, stating the knives were NOT faulty. He felt that even though I had returned the knives, and they were not faulty, I should pay for the knives!
They were not, by the way, made to my specifications; i.e. they were handmade but not custom.

The credit card company ultimately found in my favor, and I have received a full refund, but I am truly happy that I used a credit card; otherwise I would have suffered a lot more than being called a 'crybaby customer' on another forum. Hope this helps, Walt Welch
 
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