Durability of Damascus Blades

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me2

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Oct 11, 2003
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I have read for many years how damascus was superior in durability because of the different hard/soft layers etc. Has anyone been able to confirm this? Also, there are so many different ways to make damascus now that I dont know if that theory even holds, especially with the all high carbon damascus, powder damascus, wootz, cable, chain, etc.
 
In my opinion this has always been a myth perpetuated by those that want to have people think that there is a mystical quality to pattern welded blades. If you have a properly forged blade of 1084 and 15N20 and another of 1084, I can not see how the pattern welded blade would be more durable than the one made from homogenous steel.

The advantage to pattern welded steel is that in the eyes of many it is more beautiful. I have never seen proof that it makes for a better blade.

Another advantage to pattern welded steel is that it allows a bladesmith to have a use for all that scrap steel that he/she has sitting in a box.
 
That has been my opinion for some time now, mostly after buying a damascus blade with a bad weld in it. The theory has been presented by an aquaintance that unless it cost $100 per blade inch, its not real damascus, and also that the other types besides pattern weld, including the original wootz, arent real damascus either. The bad weld was in a Bear MCG balisong, but it still was advertised as pattern welded, steel and nickel I believe. Anyway, I came to the conclusion that damascus had more opportunity for screw ups, and that to get good damascus, the price had to reflect the skill of the maker. I am still not sold on the idea that it makes a superior cutting knife, or that it is any closer to indestructable than any other high quality blade steel.
 
Pattern welded steel does not have to cost $100.00 an inch to be the real stuff. I just had a quote done for a knife by an ABS Mastersmith. The blade will be 4 1/2" and the upcharge for pattern welded over 52100 was only $100.00. There are some fancy pattern welded steels that will cost $100.00 an inch, but most will be less than that. Some makers charge more than others though.

Wootz is definitely classified as a real damascus steel. Anyone that says differently doesn't know what they are talking about. Here is a LINK to a great article on wootz.
 
By the way, I have seen a lot of delamination problems in the really cheap pattern welded steel used by companies like Bear MGC.
 
I was under the impression that damascus offered the potential to be more tough, to take impacts to a higher degree. Potentially, the harder metal should be buttressed by the surrounding softer metal to allow greater flexibility and similiar traits.

I've read about damascus in the forum before, but perhaps one of the knowledgeable members will re-enlighten us again.
 
In most of the cutting competitions I've read about in the knife magazines I can't remember many knives being made of damascus.Certainly most if not all of the participents had the ability to make damascus blades.
 
orthogonal1 said:
I was under the impression that damascus offered the potential to be more tough, to take impacts to a higher degree. Potentially, the harder metal should be buttressed by the surrounding softer metal to allow greater flexibility and similiar traits.

I've read about damascus in the forum before, but perhaps one of the knowledgeable members will re-enlighten us again.
Click to expand...

In the making of pattern welded steel it is not necessarily the case that one of the steels used will be softer than the other one. Also, during the making of the steel there will carbon migration between the steels used and therefore it is unlikely that you will find a huge difference in the hardness of the steels used. It is unlikely that you will get any kind of shock absorber effect from there being a softer steel.

Some people say that an advantage of pattern welded steel the that because of the layers that you get kind of a serrated effect to the cutting edge. I have never found a pattern welded blade to cut better than one made from homogenous steel, so I can not substantiate this claim.
 
In Wayne Goddard's 1st book he says something to the effect that he has only seen the serrated effect (what he calls the "Damascus Cutting Effect") on very fine ladder pattern damascus. The only knives I've handles were random pattern. One was a friends from Atlanta Cutlery, the other was the Bear Balisong. The Atlanta Cutlery blade I put a handle on. I have no doubt it was tough, but it seemed very soft. I have heard that damascus tends to test lower on hardness tests because of the soft/hard layers. However, also in Goddard's first book, he theorizes that damascus made with over 500 layers or so would have the carbon evenly distributed due to the time and heat needed to make so many welds. The A/C blade was 512, so is it possible the blade lost enough carbon to not have a very hard blade, even if the remaining carbon was evenly distributed. The blade was from the mid '90s. I understand that they have a different source now.
 
I'm curious what does the term damascus technically cover? I thought it covered san mai, folded, wootz? If you had a san mai damascus blade with a non-damascus core there are several advantages to that, but then again the outside could also be non damascus too. Isn't there a dramatic benefit to having a folded sword over a non-folded steel sword? That's what I've always been told, but maybe the makers just wanted to charge the extra moola.
 
I used to think that folded swords were superior, but now I'm of the opinion that it is no longer needed if modern steel stock is used. If you still use traditional methods down to smelting your own steel, then the folding may be needed, since you're basically starting with what they did centuries ago. I now think that it was used to help homogenize the steel, and to allow a sword size blade from smaller pieces. The san-mai blades can have any number of properties depending on the layers used. The softer outer layers often used now will prevent cracking, but the ability to deflect w/o a permenent bend will suffer.
 
The issues I have seen with Damascus occurred when the knife was severely bent and the user attempted to restraighten it. I'm not sure any knife can take a 60-90 bend and be restraightenend without being reforged and heat treated.

I have used a Damascus hunting knife since the '70's without any problems. I give it good care using Breakfree CLP as a corrosion fighter. I wouldn't say it is a superior knife just because it is Damascus. It does cut well and has good balance.

I'm wondering if anyone has experience delamination with knives such as the Spyderco Calypso Jr with the ZDP189 and 420J steels used? Those are two steels that seem worlds apart and I would think if there were to be separation problems something like this blade would have them.

However, I'm sure because Spyderco and the Japanese knife makers made it that it will be close to perfect.
 
Some time around the 13th. century most of the best sword makers in Japan were killed before passing on their secrets. They started with sand collected from a certain place and melted it down. While still molten it was thrown on top of a clay floor. After the melt cooled down it was broken up and remelted to form the first ingot. Then the forging and folding began with the master smith adding carbon particles between the sections being folded (that's one of the secrets that was lost....the amt. of carbon added between folds). Some of the better swords were folded about 7 times with the additions of the carbon.
Not only were the blades folded but there are some blades with as many as 7 different laminations in the one blade.
A lot of the old Japanese makers tested their blades on prisoners and each part of the body had to achieve a certain kind of cut/slice.
The best Japanese Samuri swords were never know to break in battle or even dull much. One of the things they had to be able to do is slice through the cone like battle helmets made from metal shingles(at loss for a better word).

I once had a book that went into the making of the Samuri swords but, alas, I loanded it to someone and never saw it again.
To this day, with all of our knowledge of steels we are unable to match the steels in the best Samuri swords made back in the 12th. century! If the hadle is removed and the rust analized and the makers signature, which would be on the tang,is one of the great masters then they are worth somewhere in the millions of dollars.

FWIW
Ciao
Ron Cassel:cool:
 
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