As many people know, Ebay established a 2" blade limit on Butterfly or Balisong Knives. They base this on a "opinion" of the attorney general of the state of California. Even though my opinion is that his opinion does not reflect California law at all. (That is Bernard Levine's opinion also.) I go by the Federal Court decision established in the Taylor vs. US Customs decision, that a Balisong knife is NOT a Switchblade, gravity or inertia knife. At the time, I was going to do what I could, to continue to sell butterfly knives on ebay. They would create a new rule, and I would find a way to get around it. So they kept coming up with new rules and ending my auctions, tell it reached a point after about 3 months that they locked me out. I then proceeded to file against them in court. They responded to that, by working an out of court settlement with me, that I could continue to list my auctions, as long as I put a ruler in each and ever photo, and did not offer any bali or butterfly knife with a blade over 2" in length. Of course, that only pertains to what I offer on ebay, in my auctions. What goes on in my own privite email, and apart from Ebay is my own business. So, every knife I offer on ebay, is available with a full sized factory blade in it. Only it's a business transaction that has to take place outside of ebay. Often, my customers will ask me if they can trade me the knife they won on ebay, for a knife with a full sized blade in it, and that is fine with me, because it saves me the trouble of having to go down to the basement to grind it down. But also, there are people who want 2" blades, so they can carry their butterfly knife in the car, or on there person, and practice with it during the day, without having to worry about getting arrested for a "illegal" knife. Either way, we are here to provide a service and to do out best to supply people with the knives they are looking for. We do not want one time sales, so much as to create a relationship with our customers, so they will want to come back and continue to buy from us. We do appreciate all the opportunites we have been given. Thanks so very much, John (&Helen) JohnR7 on Ebay WWW.BalisongKnife.Com
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Ebay rules and regulations
- Thread starter JohnR7
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John,
I was just going to start a Thread that asked the question, "Is E-Bay Anti-BaliSong?" I'm serious, I did not have time to do it yesterday. I searched for Benchmade and received however many hits, and every one of them that was a Bali-Song was an invalid item.
I think it is sad that they refuse to allow auctions for these knives. I can understand if they placed a restriction on them, prohibiting the Seller from shipping to a State where they are illegal to possess, although I don't know how on Earth you could enforce that. But that would be better then this.
I don't know why they choose to do this, as there is no law regarding Interstate Commerce on BaliSongs that I am aware of, just switchblades.
After it is all said and done, just goes to show that all weapons-laws are just plain, old-fashioned stupid.
I was just going to start a Thread that asked the question, "Is E-Bay Anti-BaliSong?" I'm serious, I did not have time to do it yesterday. I searched for Benchmade and received however many hits, and every one of them that was a Bali-Song was an invalid item.
I think it is sad that they refuse to allow auctions for these knives. I can understand if they placed a restriction on them, prohibiting the Seller from shipping to a State where they are illegal to possess, although I don't know how on Earth you could enforce that. But that would be better then this.
I don't know why they choose to do this, as there is no law regarding Interstate Commerce on BaliSongs that I am aware of, just switchblades.
After it is all said and done, just goes to show that all weapons-laws are just plain, old-fashioned stupid.
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
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- 29,258
I actually had an interesting conversation with one of eBay's lawyers some time ago.
I asked a simple question. If, because their servers are physically located in California, eBay feels the need to apply CA weapons laws to all transactions on eBay, even when both buyer and seller are outside of CA, may be even outside of the US, then why does eBay not also feel the need to apply CA sales tax laws to all transactions? If one part of CA law applies, then doesn't the whole? They never did respond adequately.
eBay does sell alcohol despite the fact that interstate retail sales is questionably legal and all interstate sales requires a federal BATF distributor's license, and despite the fact that retail sales in California requires a CA license. eBay has no such licenses. Now, you might say, "No, eBay's listing restrictions prohibit alcohol." But, they do make an exception. They permit the sale of alcohol when the value of the lot in question does not come primarily from it being an alcoholic beverage. You see, there are people who are as passionate about beer cans as some of us are about balisong knives. To them, the thought of opening and drinking a rare, fifty-year-old can of beer is unthinkable. They're not buying it to drink it, they're buying it to collect it, and the price they'll pay for it is well above its value as stale beer. Are not some balisongs similarly less of a weapon and more a collectible work of art? Do you think that the silly guy who pays $477 for a rare balisong intends to go and stab someone with it? No. If he did have such an intention, then why spend $477 when a perfectly adequate BM42 is only about $125 and can probably be obtained faster and easier. The problem here is how to decide. One might argue that a case of Bud that you can buy at the grocery store today is potentially collectible and that you are selling it for its collectible value, not for its drinkable value. But, that's pretty obviously not true. The answer is that containers of alcoholic beverages sold on eBay are adjudicated. eBay has an outside authority who evaluates every such auction and decides if it qualifies as collectible or not. eBay has considered this, but not done anything with it so far.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
I asked a simple question. If, because their servers are physically located in California, eBay feels the need to apply CA weapons laws to all transactions on eBay, even when both buyer and seller are outside of CA, may be even outside of the US, then why does eBay not also feel the need to apply CA sales tax laws to all transactions? If one part of CA law applies, then doesn't the whole? They never did respond adequately.
eBay does sell alcohol despite the fact that interstate retail sales is questionably legal and all interstate sales requires a federal BATF distributor's license, and despite the fact that retail sales in California requires a CA license. eBay has no such licenses. Now, you might say, "No, eBay's listing restrictions prohibit alcohol." But, they do make an exception. They permit the sale of alcohol when the value of the lot in question does not come primarily from it being an alcoholic beverage. You see, there are people who are as passionate about beer cans as some of us are about balisong knives. To them, the thought of opening and drinking a rare, fifty-year-old can of beer is unthinkable. They're not buying it to drink it, they're buying it to collect it, and the price they'll pay for it is well above its value as stale beer. Are not some balisongs similarly less of a weapon and more a collectible work of art? Do you think that the silly guy who pays $477 for a rare balisong intends to go and stab someone with it? No. If he did have such an intention, then why spend $477 when a perfectly adequate BM42 is only about $125 and can probably be obtained faster and easier. The problem here is how to decide. One might argue that a case of Bud that you can buy at the grocery store today is potentially collectible and that you are selling it for its collectible value, not for its drinkable value. But, that's pretty obviously not true. The answer is that containers of alcoholic beverages sold on eBay are adjudicated. eBay has an outside authority who evaluates every such auction and decides if it qualifies as collectible or not. eBay has considered this, but not done anything with it so far.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Really strange symbolism at work. Especially since stale booze kills more people in the United States every year then BaliSongs have in the whole history of them being in the country.
It is politically correct, feel-good, Anti-Weapons B.S.
It is politically correct, feel-good, Anti-Weapons B.S.
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2000
- Messages
- 816
Why do they let the made in China cheapies go? I have seen plenty full size ones at ebay.
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Chung San
Butterfly Knife Exchange
www.butterflyknifeexchange.com
"A new kind of balisong store"
[This message has been edited by ChungSan (edited 08-17-2000).]
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Chung San
Butterfly Knife Exchange
www.butterflyknifeexchange.com
"A new kind of balisong store"
[This message has been edited by ChungSan (edited 08-17-2000).]
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 3,264
And yet again somebody justifies advancing from prudence to paranoia with "Our lawyers made us!"
And if your intent is "single use" - i.e. stabbing somebody, God forbid, won't a PRC POS do just as well (or badly!) as a BM42, and don't you already own a cheap 4" kitchen paring knife anyway?
But I preach to the choir ...
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
And if your intent is "single use" - i.e. stabbing somebody, God forbid, won't a PRC POS do just as well (or badly!) as a BM42, and don't you already own a cheap 4" kitchen paring knife anyway?
But I preach to the choir ...
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 3,264
And here's People v. Quattrone wherein a California appellate court, in 1989, decided that balisongs are Evil Gravity Knives, and for some reason the judges' opinions, and those of a bunch of authority figures in California, carry more weight than ours.
[Insert long rant about the law being a "humble beast of burden" here]
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
[Insert long rant about the law being a "humble beast of burden" here]
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
>> Are not some balisongs similarly less of a weapon and more a collectible work of art?
I really do believe a Batangas Balisong is a work of art, mostly because it's hand made, one at a time. That is why there are well over 300 different sizes & styles available on the market right now. If your going to start to censor the arts, tnen let me censor a few people who are doing things I do not agree with and calling it art. They get the full protection of the "law" why not us. Even the tax payers money goes into supporting some of those artists who are doing things I don't agree with. I really am not trying to be cute or imflamitory, I just believe it's common sense. People need to start too use their brain. Granted, it can be difficult to tell the difference between a generic bali, a fancy collector bali, and a true martial arts one. The only way to tell if it's martial arts quality, is to try and put it through a quarter, and see which is stronger. Even the Art Knife community has trouble trying to determine what is a production knife and what is a work of art, or a custom knife. But the art shows do not seem to have a problem to establish what is art and what is not. They have established standards, and we could just go by those standards. Anyways, I am just going to take this one step at a time, I have a appeal before the Port Authority of US Customs in San Fransico, so I will see how that goes, and then take the next step from there. As far as the Batangas Bali, being a Art Knife, that is just one of many arguements in favor of stoping this insane ban on people collecting balisongs. I have no problem with them having to leave 'em at home, but there is no reason we can not buy, sell and trade. Thanks, JohnR7
I really do believe a Batangas Balisong is a work of art, mostly because it's hand made, one at a time. That is why there are well over 300 different sizes & styles available on the market right now. If your going to start to censor the arts, tnen let me censor a few people who are doing things I do not agree with and calling it art. They get the full protection of the "law" why not us. Even the tax payers money goes into supporting some of those artists who are doing things I don't agree with. I really am not trying to be cute or imflamitory, I just believe it's common sense. People need to start too use their brain. Granted, it can be difficult to tell the difference between a generic bali, a fancy collector bali, and a true martial arts one. The only way to tell if it's martial arts quality, is to try and put it through a quarter, and see which is stronger. Even the Art Knife community has trouble trying to determine what is a production knife and what is a work of art, or a custom knife. But the art shows do not seem to have a problem to establish what is art and what is not. They have established standards, and we could just go by those standards. Anyways, I am just going to take this one step at a time, I have a appeal before the Port Authority of US Customs in San Fransico, so I will see how that goes, and then take the next step from there. As far as the Batangas Bali, being a Art Knife, that is just one of many arguements in favor of stoping this insane ban on people collecting balisongs. I have no problem with them having to leave 'em at home, but there is no reason we can not buy, sell and trade. Thanks, JohnR7
>> Why do they let the made in China cheapies go? I have seen plenty full size ones at ebay.
The China cheapies I sell on Ebay, have a 2" blade on them. Ebay requires me to put a ruler in each and every auction. The reason they allow it, is because I took them to court, and they had already been served papers. So, we worked out a out of court settlement that was to everyone's advantage at the them.
The China cheapies I sell on Ebay, have a 2" blade on them. Ebay requires me to put a ruler in each and every auction. The reason they allow it, is because I took them to court, and they had already been served papers. So, we worked out a out of court settlement that was to everyone's advantage at the them.
>>And here's People v. Quattrone wherein a California appellate court, in 1989, decided that balisongs are Evil Gravity Knives, and for some reason the judges' opinions, and those of a bunch of authority figures in California, carry more weight than ours.
Most likely the reason is, that the defense did not present it's case very well. The expert witness for the state in that case said it takes three movements to open a butterfly knife. A switchblade or automatic knife, has to be able to opened with one single movement. I have the knife that the law was modified to cover when they added the "flip of the wrist" part into it. When they outlaws the switchblade, someone came out with a knife that is really more of a lever action knife, and I am told they use the back spring of the knife, to help open the blade. But really, the lever just gets the blade started, and then you have to flip your wrist to get the blade out and locked into place. To me, I can not think of anything more stupid, they to try and call a butterfly knife a switchblade, or even a automatic knife. They are just not the same thing. Thanks, JohnR7 WWW.BalisongKnife.Com
Most likely the reason is, that the defense did not present it's case very well. The expert witness for the state in that case said it takes three movements to open a butterfly knife. A switchblade or automatic knife, has to be able to opened with one single movement. I have the knife that the law was modified to cover when they added the "flip of the wrist" part into it. When they outlaws the switchblade, someone came out with a knife that is really more of a lever action knife, and I am told they use the back spring of the knife, to help open the blade. But really, the lever just gets the blade started, and then you have to flip your wrist to get the blade out and locked into place. To me, I can not think of anything more stupid, they to try and call a butterfly knife a switchblade, or even a automatic knife. They are just not the same thing. Thanks, JohnR7 WWW.BalisongKnife.Com