Ed Fowlers hidden tang knives

B

beyondmyken

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Dec 23, 2000
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I hear a lot about Ed Fowler's knives and even bought his book. It looks like his blades are hidden tang style but I do not see that he uses a pin or a tang nut. I thought that hidden tang knives without a pin or tang nut were not very strong knives but his knives are highly praised for their toughness. I also thought that sheep horn didn't glue well. Could someone please enlighten me?? Many thanks.
 
Good question! I have only made a couple of hidden tang knives and I did not use pins on them. To secure the blade I filed 1/4 inch grooves across the corners of tang its full length (approximately 4 inches) and set the tang in epoxy the entire length. I sold the knives and have not heard of any problems with them. I'm almost 100% sure there won't be any, and here's why.

I have an ice cream scoop that I rehandled over three years ago. It has a very short tang that is less then half an inch long. I set the tang with epoxy in a handle made from a dense tropical wood. The testing ground is the rock hard ice cream that my wife and I eat every week. I end up scooping it because it's so hard. I'm talking about digging away with twisting and prying motions with all my strength time and time again. The result is that the scoop is as secure as the day I repaired it. If you're wondering, the orginal handle failed in part because it was made from a very light wood and in part from being put in the dish washer repeatedly.

It certainly can't hurt to have a pin, but I'm not convinced that they're necessary. I hope you get other opinions in response to your question.

 
Epoxy fails. It may be 20 or 30 years down the road, but it'll eventually give up. I often wonder, in that case will pins make any difference? They probably add some stability to resist torque like Andrew's giving his ice cream scoop, but I wonder whether when the epoxy craps out pins will be enough to hold a handle in place.

And my knives and other stuff I've made are the stamp I'm leaving on the world -- do I really want them all to start falling apart about the time I'm ready to retire? Nope. There's a Kurt Vonnegut novel whose protagonist is a painter who got famous using some new-fangled industrial paint...about 20 years later all the paint started falling off the canvases. Boy was he embarrased. Not mention all those seriously pissed off art collectors.

With all this in mind, I'm trying to work towards mechanical assembly completely. If my skills improve properly I shouldn't need epoxy at all. You'll note that the best folders have no epoxy -- they're screwed together. Let's take a lesson from Bob Loveless, whose scales are held on by bolts; the epoxy is more to keep moisture out than provide a bond, I believe.

I'm making a hidden tang knife right now (my first) whose hangle is going to be held on by epoxy alone. You can bet I won't sign it or sell it.

That's a lot of hot air for 2c. Guess I got carried away.

Dave
 
By all means use pins. In my opinion there are several reasons to do so. It is a backup to your bonding agent. The pin also helps the handle materials incase of failure.
The Client can visable see how the handles are held on and does not have to guess. Therefore he will be willing to use the knife harder or for whatever intention he purchased the knife for. If he has a bit of doubt about it then he will never use the knife to its fullest so he should not have bought it in the first place.
I agree with the screws. I use stainless bolts in 95% of my handles including the concealed tangs. There is no telling what people will do to your knives. Make them as tough as possible.
Epoxy. I use as little to none as possible. I mortis my concealed tang out so when I do use epoxy I am only filling a total of .004 clearence between tang and handle material. I prefer Brownells acrua glass. I have made pin punches from this, it holds well. I also do some knives with slide on fits.
To underscore the point about the pin. There is a well known knife maker who shall go namelell at this time. While cutting with his knife and several others, the unfortunate fellows blade came out of the handle material and went sailing and came very close the guys head in front of him. It is caught on video tape as I understand it. Not good.
At the cutting competitions we require that the knife has at least one visable pin in the handle. Safety first. Should the client expect less?
jf
 
Thanks for your input Jerry Fisk. It's always a pleasure to see you post here.
I'm gonna email this question to Ed Fowler and I'll get back to you guys.
Dave
 
Thanks guys. Mr. Fowler was kind enough to email me about his thoughts and preferences. I also sincerely appreciate your comments.
 
Hi all. I'm sure we all know that there is more than one way to do most things and one may be right for you and another for me. Personally I have never heard of a Fowler knife failing in any way, if anyone has I would like to hear about it. I emailed Ed Fowler about this question and I want to thank him for taking time out of his busy schedule(he's getting ready for the Blade Show and also has the usual ranch and cow stuff to do) to answer me. You guys that know me know that in my opinion his knives are the best performance wise(he doesn't make wallhangers) and good looking too. I hope to have a Pronghorn in the 4" range one of these days. Ok, here's his answer with his return email address edited out for obvious reasons(like if he had to answer 100 emails instead of working, Angie Fowler would kick my butt).
Dave
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Subject: Sheep Horn & Tangs
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:54:07 -0700
From: ed fowler
To: lifter4Him1@aol.com

Good Morning:
You raised some good questions concerning sheep horn and hidden tangs,
thanks for raising the issue.
1) In order for sheep horn to be at its best as handle material, it
must be properly processed and aged. This entails aging it outside
until all of the lanolin is weathered off of the horn, then waiting
until the surface of the horn whiskers, much like a raw sanded gun stock
when water is applied to the surface. At this time the horn is dry
and the right epoxy or other bonding materials will readily stick it to
what ever you want to stick it to.
2) For stability, I then age the horn an additional 5 years in a covered
shed hanging in the open air.
3) Hidden tangs can be as strong or stronger than full or pinned tangs
if done properly. Pins have their place and many excellent knife makers
make good use of pins and know how and when to use them. I feel that in
some cases pins can be an avenue for moisture to enter into the handle
and eat (rust) the tang, a cancer slowly eating away that you can't
see. The fewer such avenues for moisture, the better. I could easily
pin my handles but do not because of the above disadvantage. Also a
pinned handle can actually weaken the structure if the tang is not a
precise fit to the handle. The right epoxy provides an excellent fit
and seal against moisture so why take a chance weakening the knife when
it is not absolutely necessary?
4) Our modern day adhesives provide the knife maker and his clients
some strong advantages. They fill the hollowed handle to provide a much
tighter fit than any knife maker could manage. I cut the hollow in the
handle a little oversize, then rough the tang with a coarse 36 grit belt
in such manner that the tang looks like a poorly designed coarse saw
blade. I fill the hollow in the sheep horn to allow the epoxy to
penetrate into the pores of the sheep horn, then spray the tang with a
degreaser to assure a good bond, let the degreaser dry, then sink the
tang into the handle. The epoxy I use is a 24 hour cure, (Bob Brownells
Acura Glass) this provides good penetration into the sheep horn and a
very strong bond to the steel.
5) When I started using sheep horn for handle material in the manner I
now use, I tried various lengths of tang and tested them for strength by
locking the blade in my hydraulic press edge up, then down and stood
with all of my weight on one foot on the end of the handle. I tested
several progressively shortened tangs until one started to break loose.
I added 30% to the relative length of all future tangs and feel that
this is plenty strong enough. I do not believe that a man could break
one loose with his hands. They are very strong. I have only had one
loosen up, this was when I used some epoxy that had been mixed by
another knife maker who was working in my shop. He had mixed up some
epoxy and when I started to mix up a batch for my knife he offered his
remaining supply. I used it and several years later the client who
purchased that knife called me and stated that the handle was loose. He
sent the knife back to me for fixing the problem. In order to remove
the sheep horn it took a lot of wedging and working the handle to get it
off of the tang. The epoxy was very granular in appearance. I called
the manufacturer and he stated that this problem could only arise from
the wrong mixture of the two parts. Since that time I have mixed my own
epoxy on every knife I make.

There is no aspect of my knives that has not been thoroughly tested and
evaluated. Nothing is there by accident, oversight (to the best of my
ability) or as a short cut, . Any questions you may have, feel free to
contact me and I will gladly discuss it with you.

Thanks for raising the issue, I am sure others have had the same
question and the discussion may provide insight for something better.

Sincerely
Ed. Fowler
 
This is a great post for me. Have spent considerable time wondering just how a hidden tang knife could possibly be strong enough to last a long time with hard use.

Guess my largest level of ignorance was about the nature of the epoxies that are available today -- well, just epoxies to be honest. I've always figured that the strength would lie in the handle material, due to an extremely precise, tight fit between tang and handle.

As a Montana native, who grew up thinking antelope was better eating even than venison, have to admit that Ed Fowler's Pronghorn has held great attraction for me. From reading his column, I know that he puts as much thought into what he's doing with knives as any maker, probably more than most. I think he is more focused on the "soul" of knives, or their spirit than most, as well. Thanks a lot, Dave, for providing Ed's specific answer to the question.



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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
Thanks for posting this thread. I enjoy hearing Eds reasons for doing things. I have met him at several shows and always like talking with him. His knives are legendary. The blades are thick and wide at the tang area which helps keep it tight in the horn. They are stronger than a full tang with a notch cut and a hole drilled for the guard. Bruce B
 
Thanks for posting this thread. I enjoy hearing Eds reasons for doing things. I have met him at several shows and always like talking with him. His knives are legendary. The blades are thick and wide at the tang area which helps keep it tight in the horn. They are stronger than a full tang with a notch cut and a hole drilled for the guard. Bruce B
 
I wonder when I hear of epoxy "failing", it is due to the properties of the epoxy itself vs. other factors within our control such as
ratio of mixture, mixed in a cold temp, oils left on the tang, air pockets around the tang/epoxy mix, etc. I would suppose if you left your knife in a hot car the epoxy could weaken. Custom fiberglass laminated bows can delaminate this way, not a pretty site to see. Thankfully this is not first hand experience.
 
There is some truth in both the comments of Dave, Jerry Fisk and Ed Fowler.
My sister is a restaurator and does wood and paper repair jobs for museums. Ask these people and you'll see that they never will use anything for their jobs that's not tested for at least 100 years. They had some bad experiences during the 20th century. Some of them started using the new "un-destroyable" plastic stuff during the 50s and the "saved" historical important artifacts came apart without another possibility to salvage them during the 80s and 90s.
So, Ed is right in his opinion that pinning may weaken the tang and may open an avenue for humidity and oxidation. And he's equally right when he sais that epoxy alone is giving enough stability to hold a handle on a tang. But does he know what will happen to this stuff say 100 years down the road? No.
And Dave and Jerry are right in their opinion that epoxy will fail sooner or later and that pinning may hold up longer. There are a lot of japanese sword blades which always have been pinned and didn't fail or rust away for 500 or more years. That's also a result of proper care and i know that especially Ed Fowler is a big friend of proper knife care.
Personally i think that you should use both methods combined. A pin to hold it together for a long time and a water resistant glue like epoxy or cutler's resin to make it tight against moisture. If you don't want to weaken the tang you may even go a step further and make a through tang construction and hold the grip together with a end nut a la Randall. That's perfect.

Achim
 
Well, I was hopin someone else would post this but they haven't and I feel it needs posting. In Ed's email he said,
"3) Hidden tangs can be as strong or stronger than full or pinned tangs
if done properly."
I'm sorry but I do not see how a hidden or stick tang could be as strong as a full tang.

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Take care!! Michael
jesus.jpg


Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!

My Web Site
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
Michael, keep in mind that we are not considering the strength of the tang by itself, but the strength of the whole handle unit. IMHO the scales added to a full tang knife do not add much if any strength. On the other hand a hidden tang tightly embedded in a handle of dense hardwood etc is vastly stronger than the tang by itself. You are dealing with a composite structure. Think of the block of wood by itself also. Can you break it in two? You'd have to put it in a vise and hit it with a heavy hammer I bet to do that. Add a reinforcing ferrule surrounding the grip/tang assembly and the overall strength shoots up again. Silver braze that reinforcing ferrule to the guard plate and you add even more strength! It does seem to me for a simple knife with out ferrule, guard, or bolster, a stick tang would be weaker in that it would be vulnerable at the unreinforced tang/ricasso junction. Of course, all this assumes the hidden tang is substantial itself and not one of those tooth pick tangs!
 
Ok, first I want to post an addition Ed Fowler asked me to add to his previous reply. Then I'd like to add a few of my own thoughts and observations.

If you can, please add the following to the post.
Knifemakers: When testing handles for strength, it is best to use an
unsharpened blade. For the test mentioned I used a forged blade, left
it blunt, no point. Finished up the tang, soldered a guard, then fit
the handles on, grinding the tang progressively for each test.. When
testing handles there may be much force involved to take a chance
working with a blade that can hurt you.
Thanks
Ed

This is Dave again. Achim, I guess you're referring to the other Dave as I didn't disagree with Mr. Fowler. That said, I'd like to point out that alot of people talk about testing blades, but I doubt that many if any test them the way Ed does. He is passionate about his testing, maybe to the point of obsession. He probably destroys more money in blades a year testing than some makers make in a year. When he's done testing one, it is ready for the trash heap.
He is more interested in making a quality knife than making money. He spends a LOT of time on each knife making sure it is the best he can do. If money was his objective, he could shorten the amount of time spent on each knife and double or triple his output and folks would buy them due to his name recognition. We are talking about a guy who lives, eats, and breathes knives. If he tells me that this is the way he found that makes the strongest knife of the style he makes, that's good enough for me. It's not like adding a pin would be too difficult for him. Also, suggesting that 2 ton or 5 ton properly mixed and bonded epoxy would fail in 100 or 200 years is pure conjecture and has no basis for proof.
Lastly, let me just say that if it seems I am kissing up to him because he's my buddy or for a discount, forget it! I have met Ed for a few minutes at 3 or 4 NY Shows and I'm sure he wouldn't know me if we met tommorrow unless I told him my name. It's just that I am passionate about using knives and through looking at his knives in person and through his writings, he has earned my respect. Who else has a sign on their table at shows that says: Please pick up?

Dave
PS-how does he get that dog to sit there with the knife in his mouth? My black lab would either bury it or chew the heck out of it
smile.gif
 
to all concerned, I have been to Ed's shop on many occasions and have participated in more testing in twenty four hours with him than most people/knifemakers do in a month. I have taken hidden tang knives made in the Fowler way and driven them through oak two by fours repeatedly. the resulting damage was negligible with only some minor damage to the end of the handle where I was hitting it with the hammer. the horn was easily cleaned up and repolished. As for acra glass failing it has been in use for nearly fifty years as a bedding compound on untold thousands of rifles with very few recorded failures. I have personaly processed over ten thousand rounds of 308 win through a rifle that has been bedded with acra glass and there is no sign of any kind of failure. this is probably more pounding than any knife will ever endure. In addition to the pounding, I clean every fifteen to twenty shots with some pretty strong solvent an inverably some of these solvents get on the bedding. I do not take the action out of the stock until the competitive season is over so it ends up working on the acra glass for about six months before being cleaned off. after four years there is no sign of any effect on the bedding not even any discoloration. I personaly feel that this shows the quality and performance of this epoxy to be very high and can see no reason for any kind of failure UNLESS THE USER causes it by IMPROPER MIXING. nuff said!
 
I gotta jump in because no one has hit on the best method I've ever found. I agree that epoxy alone is not a great answer but I also don't feel pins are needed under normal use. Fit and design go a long way. Look at a mortise and tenion joint. You don't just chisel a hole and swab it with glue to fill the gaps. A tight fit is needed. Further the wood if good and dry will swell some in time. Use that to your advantage.

I cut a number of barbs in the tang and get a tight fit in the handle. Use just enough epoxy to get good coverage and force the handle on. I've made some ugly knives and some stupid designs but I never had a handle put on this way come off.
 
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