Ed Fowler's Kinfe Talk and opinions and questions

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pig

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Mar 12, 2003
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(I posted this first to the General forum, perhaps this is the better place?)
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Hi Ed and the whole knife family,
I did read Ed's "Knife Talk" very carefully. (I must prove it, of course to be believed, there is a printing error on the page 121. You should read 3/6 to be 3/16. So much about careful reading.) The book is invaluable to professionals but also funny to read to everybody most of all to revenuers. The article "The revenuers" is the best humorous essay I ever read.
I would have written directly to Ed, but he is probably buried in e-mails. (Ed kindly answerer to me earlier in this forum about "forger/grinded blades" and offered the book directly from him but did not answer my e-mail.)

Some thoughts to be shared (not only inspired by Ed's book):
(1)There are many different "schools" and books of knife making. It would be invaluable for a new beginner to get a comparative discussion about these matters. Some techniques presented differently in different books are matters of an opinion other techniques are simply presented in older books because new results are not known. (Well, I know that "everybody must find his own way", but still. There are lot to be find own way iven with some "navigation tool" helps.)

-Triple quenching/ the grain structure gets worse with every heating (quenching)
-To quench "vertically/horizontally"
-Tempering the spine with torch or leave it unhardened partially
-.....................

(2) If we harden the tip and only oven temper it (350- 375 F) it will be brittle?

(3) "ABS spring smith test"- do not be offended I am joking!
ABS test practically reads- it spirit is: "Test the cutting and edge holding to be acceptable good. Test the toughness to the extreme limits". (Now I understand why Ed loves 5160- it is a spring steel!)
The test idea could be other way around: "Test the toughness to be acceptable good and test the cutting and edge holding to the extreme"

What kind of test? For example:
-Tip test: Hit the knife 1/5 inch (?) deep into a hickory block. Bend it suddenly sideways. The tip can't crack or bend and STAY BENT.
-Bending test: Bend the knife in a wise with a strong power (the power to be defined exactly). The knife can't crack or bend and STAY BENT.
-Cutting and edge holding: To be defined as extreme.

(4) Easy to sharpen argumen?
Two happy owners. Which one is more happy?
(A) "I sharpened my knife last week and must sharpen it to day again. No problem, it is easy to sharpen"
(B) "I sharpened my knife year ago and I must sharpen it to day again. No problem, I have a 'diamond stone'"

Also "easy to sharpen statement" comes as a consequence from the current ABS- test?
Any spring steel can't be extreme edge holding (low carbon for example).


Good blades: pig
 
:confused:

I seem to be missing something. Are you looking for other peoples input on the book or are you looking for opinions of your revue?

Mark
 
I'm with Gouge...

I think you overlooked to write a sentence or something, because I just dont understand the meanings of things in your post yet....

Now I love KNIFE TALK too, I cant waite for my birthday when I get the new Fowler book. I have tried to keep Knife Talk in mind each time I turn on my grinder..

I like 52100 stel, and 5160, because I can watch how Ed Fowler does the heat treatments, and just copy his advice..
 
Not real shure where your going with this, :confused:

I will say that I didn't believe Ed at first on the triple quenching till I tried it and found signifigant improvement in performance. The thing is, your not holding the blade at criticle temp long enough for grain grouth. I have noticed an improvement in 5160 and 52100, some steel I found little or no improvement.

As for the ABS test, the way I understand it is that the blade has to be thin enough to cut the free hanging rope, thick enough to chop the 2x4", and tough enough to be bent to 90deg. and holds its edge troughout. It showes that a smith has mastered the heat treat and edge geomitry for that steel and can make a knife that can be counted on. As for extream cutting, the ABS aready has that, everything from empty soda cans to wooden dowls handing from a thread.

As for ease of sharping, just for example, I work off-shore and for almost a year used a 52100 bladed folder. Sadly that knife went for a swim recently and is 300+ feet down. I recently bought an excellent Benchmade with 154cm blade as a replacement. The only differance in this environment and under these conditions is that the Benchmade dosent rust as easily and is a lot harder to sharpen. They both required frequent sharpenings, but the 52100 blade only took a few seconds.

As for the tip, some makers for some knives give the tip an extra draw with a torch for added toughness. I like a little thicker tip that can stand a little more rigerouse work.

It all depends on your expectations of what you want from a knife, and what you want the knife to do.
 
Good reply Will, thanks. I think Pig is opening a discussion of several points. Pig, perhaps we could take them one at a time? Which question would you like to work through first?

Thanks,
Dave
 
Hi,
thanks everybody answering.
Dave seems to be interested to continue the discussion about these matters.

So, ABS- tests.

First I must say that I have not, of course, any illusion to change ABS- test!
ABS is a big organisation and a definition of a big organisation could be "something unchangeable".

To be understood right, I had no critic about triple quenching. I just put it on the list of cases where different books explain matters differently!

Secondy I understand the basic idea of the current tests. The test shows for sure lot of smith skills:
-To choose spring steel to be "on a solid ground"
-Ability to temper a spring
-Ability with smith skills to build up a good cutting and edge holding blade even from a low carbon spring steel
-To sharpen a knife perfectly


What I do not understan is that a tip test is missing. It is important? I think any user says so.

An other thing, I guess, is that should the test to be only to test smith cababilities in general or could it even be more close to a blade a user wants.(At least a user wants a tip test to be done,)

For example (well, a little bit artificial), the owner is climping a cliff. He must save himself with his knife by putting it into a hole and hanging on it. If the knife bends 90 degrees he drops.

If the knife is strong enouch, do it matter from a user point of view would it bend 15 or 90 degrees (in general) under heavy load as far as it do not crack?

It would take a lot of smith ability also to build a knife from a high carbon (1% C or even more)or alloyed steel and still handle it to be really tough (not still necessarily bending 90 degrees).


pig
 
Pig your tip-test question is an interesting one, at least to me. But I am not a smith so I'm not at all qualified to answer it or offer suggestions.

However, bending is part of the ABS test, a test for toughness - that is, the ability of the blade to deflect without breaking. I believe for the ABS test the edge may crack but the blade cannot break.

I believe the sum total of the ABS test is intended to ensure the smith can do a proper heat treat, and can control the blade geometry for its intended task. In this case chopping, cutting a free hanging rope and shaving. That seems a pretty good challenge to me! (One that no knife I've made so far could pass.) And this is probably why a tip test is not part of it, as the tip is not involved in these tasks.

I'm interested in what you would like to test in the tip. It's strength? Ability to pierce? If so, pierce what? Thanks pig, this is enjoyable and I hope someone else jumps in.

Dave
 
First let me say that the ABS test are for general testing, and are the minimal required.

As for the bending part, I've managed it with 52100 and L-6, neigther of which are low carbon or spring steels. Even with only the lower 1/3 of the blade quenched I couldnt bend them by hand(I am a 260lb. offshore roughneck) They required a pipe to bend. The thing is if a blade is heat treated right it shouldn't break, should be able to bend but resist bending to a high degree, ie. not flimsy.

As for the tip, that's something that needs a 'standardized' test, I personaly try to engrave mild steel and have done a bit of prying with them. In fact I am often told I'll break the point when I go to open paint cans and such only to surprise the observers.
 
I've had similar results with a knife made from O1. Couldn't bend or break it with my own weight, that is. I drove the point about an inch into a heavy stump and twisted it out several times without breaking. I couldn't hurt the stupid knife so ended up giving it to my nephew. :D But though it was sharp enough to shave the edge was way too thick to cut very delicately. I'm working on that...
 
If I was fortunate enough to have one of Ed Fowler's books, I would have it right next to my Bible on the shelf. He won't steer you wrong. Period. Maybe you don't quite understand what he has written, and you are entitled to your opinion. If I did not agree with something he has written, I'd rather take it up with him, not make a forum debate with it. And if I offend anyone here, I apologize for it.I must have misconstrued what Pig was trying to get across. Sorry,guy.
 
Thanks a lot!
I have got important information. Nobody really agreed with me for example that a tip test should be part of the ABS test, this is not a problem with me. I just want to know what people think about that.
Unfortunately I offended probably some. I do apologize.

I did know that everybody must respect an other's culture and I know that this is mainly an American forum. Also I did know that people are very religious and have the strong belief in authorities. On the other hand I did did try to put my words as good as was able. To quote myself from my earlier reply:

"To be understood right, I had no critic about triple quenching. I just put it on the list of cases where different books explain matters differently! "

Also I did overestimate the fact that all great masters emphasize the open mind and own judgment in their books.
The other problem to me in this respect is that there are different opinions in different books of great masters. I do not want to say that some master is wrong. I first got two great books by Jim Hrisoulas and later on a great book by Ed Fowler.


pig
 
Pig:
I am aorry we did not respond to your e-mail, we try to answer all letters and e-mails promptly, but sometimes don't get the job done. If ever anyone writes and doesn't get a reply, don't hesitate to write again.
To all who have responded: I was delighted to read your responses and discuss the topics. Good Job! The world of knives is in good hands.

In my second book, Knife Talk II I discuss some functions a tip should be capable of. Engraving metal is one that is easily achieved.
What for? The knife's intended purpose is the guidline for geometry. This is where maker and client need to agree befor the knife is made. The tip sometimes does all the work, sometimes it is responsable for getting into the work to be done. Tip strength is absolutely critical in field knives, prying joints apart is essential, but a sharp chissel (sp?) top line behind the tip will ealily split or wedge and pry may not be necessairy.

Overall strength is absolutely manditory in the field knife, Like mentioned earlier, hanging on a cliff doesn't happen very often, but when it does you will be very pleased the knife held up. The ability to hold the man's weight with the blade jammed in whatever, is a worthwhile attribute. The maker and client need to agree on what for. Light knives and heavy duty knives all have a purpose.

Again you all did a good job with the discussion.
 
I like this guy, Pig. Pig, I think you are or will be a really good knife maker.I just feel kinda odd, refering to you as "Pig". Welcome to the Forum, guy.
 
Thanks John for your kind words (and everybody else, answering to me too!).
I am a pig because of a pig is the one who looks at me every morning from the bathroom mirror.

Two pictures of me (no doubt any more, I am a pig):
http://www.evitech.fi/~tk/Wbsblu2.jpg
http://www.evitech.fi/~tk/Wbsblu3.jpg


Some of my knife making exercises (not the one on the top):
http://www.evitech.fi/~tk/3.jpg
(There is a funny story about a competition between kitchen knifes in the picture)

Take care: pig from Finland
 
Wow! Great knives! I am going to have to give that picture a lot of attention, you have a lot to teach me. That's great, pig! Thanks for sharing, I'd like to see a lot more pics too, any time you feel like it.

Dave
 
Originally posted by Ed Fowler

In my second book, Knife Talk II I discuss some functions a tip should be capable of.
Click to expand...

Speaking of KTII, I'm still waiting, any idea when we'll be able to get it?

Ed, can I ask you to please post a notice here when it's available?

Thanx
 
knife talk two is availible now. I think that Ed is sold out for now but is expecting some more.

I am down at Eds right now. we are hard at work on the New shop. We have the walls standing now and hope to get the roof on tomarrow.:D
 
A funny story about kitchen knifes (answer to John's question):

My son (living in Sweden) asked for me a kitchen knife which stays sharp a long time (lazy as his father to sharpen kitchen knifes).

I had bar of very high quality German cold tool steel (Bohler K110) not suitable for general duty knifes. Very high alloyed very high carbon too. It was designed for tools to resist extremely well wear (for example for steel sheet cutting tools).

So I did find that now I can try it. I did a knife. I used all good knife making practices. I sharpened it very well. Then I asked, looking as honest as possible, my wife to try is it sharp compared to real factory knife. I had built up a pile of thick leather stripes (in the picture).

I said that I have to sharpen my own knife competing againts a real knife and did saw the edge of it againts a copper bar with me.

Then I asked my wife to saw a stripe from my leather pile. She did saw a lot (as a carpenter saws 2x4 inch pine board with a hand saw) and finally did succeed.

I did give my knife and she did start sawing. First push half way of the edge it went to the board and did leave 4 new loose leather stripes.

This was funny. She was not just surprised. It was easy to see that it did take 2 or 3 seconds to even understand where new stripes were coming from and what had happened.

Then I said: The factory knife was not perhaps sharp. I did try to hand over the copper bar to her and did say: Sharpen the old knife.

Unfortunately this was too much for her, she said: Your knife seems to be more sharp. She did understand that I was making a practical joke and did quit the experiment.

This steel was horrible:
-red (even yellow) hard
-difficult to heat threat (very high quenching temperature by mill specs)
-air hardening (I did quench it in oil)
-resistant to tempering (softens only in very high temperatures)
-resistant to acids (I used electrolyse for letters)
-resistant to sharpening (even a diamond stone)- well, I use often grinder and buffing for that (not a field sharpening way)

I think that it will stay that way and will be resistant everythinhg also to dulling!


I did "grind belt tempering" for the spine, the term is my own because I "inventid" it, probably a lot of knife makers have invented it too.

Normally I often use it for the tip. I take a wear out 400 grit belt. I leave some extra material near the tip. I temper a knife in kitchen oven. Then I "grind belt temper" the tip exactly half way from the spine side to blue . It is easy compared to any other heating method and wear out fine belt do not take too much material off.

pig
 
Pig,
Fine looking knives. The sheaths are outstanding also.
Interesting method used to attach the twisted bar handle;
how is it holding up to use?
Regards,
Greg
 
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