It appears I have found the lower limit of my Spyderco Delica in terms of edge angle. I rebeveled the edge from about 35 degrees inclusive to about 20, then honed on the belt sander. The edge was smooth and sharp enough to whittle beard hair easily. Last night I was cleaning up the kitchen and broke down some cardboard, and for fun, cut a frozen grape tossed into the air. I'm not sure which one, but one of the 2 chipped the edge. The grape is the prime suspect, since it was the last thing I cut, and there was some sticky stuff around where the chips were most noticable. I'll touch it up on the 15 degree slots of the Sharpmaker and it should be ok. My normal sharpening angle on the sander is about 15 degrees per side, touched up on the 20 degree slots on the Sharpmaker. I lowered the bevel angle to 20 degrees roughly (10 per side) in order to touch up on the 15 degree slots. These chips are not large, but are noticable when the edge is checked w/ a thumbnail or pen cap.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Edge Angle Lower Limit
- Thread starter me2
- Start date
Have you tried using microbevels? I run many knives in the range of 6-10 degrees inclusive and apply a more obtuse microbevel (~10 degrees per side) and don't run into chipping problems when slicing cardboard.
Just took my Centofante 3 in the same steel as your Delica flat to the stone. It could use another 5 minutes or so of work but it cuts about as good as the Centofante 4 Krein regrind I had for a passaround. Very happy with the way it cuts.
I haven't found the lower limit on any of my knives, but that's probably because of the microbevels I apply to them. The only damage I've done to my regrinds was intentional, e.g. pounding them through metal cored co-ax cable (Chipped the edge, but the same happened to 40 degree edges so I don't think edge angles had much to do with it) or batoning knotty, seasoned hardwood with them (When bent the blade behind the edge going through knots but the edge itself still shaved).
Just took my Centofante 3 in the same steel as your Delica flat to the stone. It could use another 5 minutes or so of work but it cuts about as good as the Centofante 4 Krein regrind I had for a passaround. Very happy with the way it cuts.
I haven't found the lower limit on any of my knives, but that's probably because of the microbevels I apply to them. The only damage I've done to my regrinds was intentional, e.g. pounding them through metal cored co-ax cable (Chipped the edge, but the same happened to 40 degree edges so I don't think edge angles had much to do with it) or batoning knotty, seasoned hardwood with them (When bent the blade behind the edge going through knots but the edge itself still shaved).
The chip is most likely a fluke. Barring significant lateral stress, cutting cardboard or a grape isn't a particularly strenuous task for blade durability. How big is the chip?
I have an Ontario machete that's at a bit less than 10 inclusive, chopped with it and all. Even accounting for the difference in tempering, a Delica at 20 degrees is not normally prone to chipping with the materials you cut.
I have an Ontario machete that's at a bit less than 10 inclusive, chopped with it and all. Even accounting for the difference in tempering, a Delica at 20 degrees is not normally prone to chipping with the materials you cut.
The 'safe' minimum included angle for my folders is 30 degrees included, suitable for slicing hardwoods without edge damage. This holds true for steels such as S30V, BG42, and ATS34.
The exception among my folders is a 440V Military blade that will slice hardwood with a final included edge angle of about 25 degrees without damage.
Like Vivi, I like compound bevels. I like 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels. This thins the edge width for the micro-beveled final edge and seems to increase slicing efficiency.
Another exception, the Spyderco Mule 52100 blade required thicker final 15 degree edge bevels than the S30V, ATS34 and BG42 blades to survive hardwood-slicing without chipping.
I only use thinner edges for slicing softer materials. My cigar-cutter blade is a hard Japanese kitchen knife blade with 15 degrees-include final edge bevel.
Cardboard-slicing is a tough test for any blade, very abrasive and also 'dirty' with inclusions. When I do break down cardboard boxes, I use a 1095 blade that can easily be re-edged easier than my EDC folder blades.
Hope this helps!
The exception among my folders is a 440V Military blade that will slice hardwood with a final included edge angle of about 25 degrees without damage.
Like Vivi, I like compound bevels. I like 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels. This thins the edge width for the micro-beveled final edge and seems to increase slicing efficiency.
Another exception, the Spyderco Mule 52100 blade required thicker final 15 degree edge bevels than the S30V, ATS34 and BG42 blades to survive hardwood-slicing without chipping.
I only use thinner edges for slicing softer materials. My cigar-cutter blade is a hard Japanese kitchen knife blade with 15 degrees-include final edge bevel.
Cardboard-slicing is a tough test for any blade, very abrasive and also 'dirty' with inclusions. When I do break down cardboard boxes, I use a 1095 blade that can easily be re-edged easier than my EDC folder blades.
Hope this helps!
The 'safe' minimum included angle for my folders is 30 degrees included, suitable for slicing hardwoods without edge damage. This holds true for steels such as S30V, BG42, and ATS34.
The exception among my folders is a 440V Military blade that will slice hardwood with a final included edge angle of about 25 degrees without damage.
Like Vivi, I like compound bevels. I like 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels. This thins the edge width for the micro-beveled final edge and seems to increase slicing efficiency.
Another exception, the Spyderco Mule 52100 blade required thicker final 15 degree edge bevels than the S30V, ATS34 and BG42 blades to survive hardwood-slicing without chipping.
I only use thinner edges for slicing softer materials. My cigar-cutter blade is a hard thin-bladed Japanese kitchen knife with 15 degrees-included final edge bevel.
Cardboard-slicing is a tough test for any blade, very abrasive and also 'dirty' with inclusions. When I do break down cardboard boxes, I use a 1095 blade that can easily be re-edged easier than my EDC folder blades.
Hope this helps!
The exception among my folders is a 440V Military blade that will slice hardwood with a final included edge angle of about 25 degrees without damage.
Like Vivi, I like compound bevels. I like 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels. This thins the edge width for the micro-beveled final edge and seems to increase slicing efficiency.
Another exception, the Spyderco Mule 52100 blade required thicker final 15 degree edge bevels than the S30V, ATS34 and BG42 blades to survive hardwood-slicing without chipping.
I only use thinner edges for slicing softer materials. My cigar-cutter blade is a hard thin-bladed Japanese kitchen knife with 15 degrees-included final edge bevel.
Cardboard-slicing is a tough test for any blade, very abrasive and also 'dirty' with inclusions. When I do break down cardboard boxes, I use a 1095 blade that can easily be re-edged easier than my EDC folder blades.
Hope this helps!
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2004
- Messages
- 1,670
I also recommend adding a microbevel. In my experience and testing with Spyderco's VG-10, I've found that blades sharpened to 12 deg./side primary angle perform very well with a microbevel of 20 deg/side added -- for which the Sharpmaker is perfect. Note that in my testing running a more acute microbevel of 17 deg/side or less gave poorer edge retention than with 20 deg/side. Individual blades may vary, it can be kind of a trial-and-error process, but very easy to experiment with using microbevels.
I fully intend to add a microbevel at 15 degrees per side. As I said, that was the whole reason for lowering the bevel to 10 DPS in the first place. It just seemed a shame to waste that thin edge, so I power stropped it on the sander, and when it gets dull, I'll start a microbevel. The more I think about it, the more I think it must have been the cardboard. It was some pretty nasty stuff, and could have had some grit stuck to it or in it. The blade still shaves easily, and under strong light, 4 chips are just visible. Man, I wish I could find a nice 440V blade again. I keep kicking myself for selling the Random Task. Cut copper wire and all, with no noticable damage of any kind, and a 15 degree back bevel and a 20 degree sharpmaker final edge. Oh well, next time I'll know better.
My experience with ZDP-189, CPM S60V, and SGPS, is that if you try to sharpen much lower than ten degrees per side the edge will fold over extremely easily.
For example, when I would lay the knife flat with my fingernail and press a little, about an eighth inch section would flex to match the curve.
Even with the thicker final edge angle I can get a little flex, but it was really bad at the lower extreme. I've found ten degrees per side to be a practical limit for my uses (paper, fingernails, leather, nothing hard).
I still like to sharpen the back bevel flat with the primary grind, right now my Caly 3 is 0.011" thick 1/16" back from the edge, and it's doing pretty good.
For example, when I would lay the knife flat with my fingernail and press a little, about an eighth inch section would flex to match the curve.
Even with the thicker final edge angle I can get a little flex, but it was really bad at the lower extreme. I've found ten degrees per side to be a practical limit for my uses (paper, fingernails, leather, nothing hard).
I still like to sharpen the back bevel flat with the primary grind, right now my Caly 3 is 0.011" thick 1/16" back from the edge, and it's doing pretty good.
Same with D2 at 10 - 12 inclusive. Putting a microbevel on takes 2 minutes, and saves you a lot of grief. I had to learn the hard way..... 
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203/sodak_photos/queen_4180.jpg
Honestly, with the microbevel, I can't tell the difference in cutting ability. But it's much stronger now.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203/sodak_photos/queen_4180.jpg
Honestly, with the microbevel, I can't tell the difference in cutting ability. But it's much stronger now.
Same with D2 at 10 - 12 inclusive. Putting a microbevel on takes 2 minutes, and saves you a lot of grief. I had to learn the hard way.....
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203/sodak_photos/queen_4180.jpg
Honestly, with the microbevel, I can't tell the difference in cutting ability. But it's much stronger now.
Did that happen during sharpening? Or, what did you cut to take those chunks out?- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
I think he was slicing toilet paper when that happened. I've also heard that Sodak has switched from store-bought toilet paper to using roofing shingles from abandoned buildings so he can afford more knives from Mr. Wilson.
Sorry, I've been away a couple of days... I was trying to make fuzz sticks from some pitch pine. I was using a slight scooping motion, and not paying attention until I saw the third one or so. It looks bad, but putting a microbevel on it took out 95% of this in about 2 minutes on a dmt blue.
I think he was slicing toilet paper when that happened. I've also heard that Sodak has switched from store-bought toilet paper to using roofing shingles from abandoned buildings so he can afford more knives from Mr. Wilson.
You can call me Mr. Tough!
Yes, Mr. Wilson is always on my short list! I recycle worn out sandpaper too!- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
Hey Mr. Tough!
I sharpened a VG-10 blade down to slightly less than 10° per side and it cut paper and whittled hair with the best of them. Then, I happily sliced an empty soft drink bottle. After marvelling at the effortlessness, I looked down and saw the edge was rolled to the left and badly cracked from tip to heel. The 50° included edge bevel I put on it is not as impressive.
Thinking the SSSS will need to make or otherwise obtain a portable goniometer to answer these questions.
I sharpened a VG-10 blade down to slightly less than 10° per side and it cut paper and whittled hair with the best of them. Then, I happily sliced an empty soft drink bottle. After marvelling at the effortlessness, I looked down and saw the edge was rolled to the left and badly cracked from tip to heel. The 50° included edge bevel I put on it is not as impressive.
Thinking the SSSS will need to make or otherwise obtain a portable goniometer to answer these questions.