edge heavy?

N

nybble

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Nov 9, 2001
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In the Davidson proto thread Tony was talking about something I've been thinking a lot about, weight distribution. Since most of flipping counts on centrifugal, if you made the knives edge heavy but light everywhere else you could probably make a knife that was both very light but that you could really get moving.

I've been thinking about asking if Mer could build something like that for me - a blade with massively skeletonized handles at the top 3/4, maybe brass, and some top heavy blade profile, perhaps even with some holes at the base of the blade. What do people think of this idea?
 
Nybble - that's a very interesting idea. I don't think it would make normal manipulations any quicker, as the handles are what put the speed on the blade. But, I think it would certianly be interesting to have one to see what different moves you could accomplish from the misbalance. Moves like "fanning" (blade and bite handle laying flat with each other, making a "T") would almost be impossible with that type of weight distrubution. And the odd inertia and balance involved in that move is a very important thing with a large amount of advanced manipulations. Not to mention attempting an aerial with that sort of bali would most likely leave your hand perforated. :D

But, like I was saying before, I'd love to have a knife like you described. I've heard people mention that they have favorite balis for different manipulations. I'm sure you could come up with some weird lookin' stuff using a bali like that. :)
 
Nybble: Hmm... Sounds like something to go for. It's at least worth a try. I have no idea how this would end up, but if no one tries, no one will ever find out, right?
But to make the blade heavy on the egde only, I think you'd have to cut some SERIOUS holes on the rest of the blade... But I'm no expert at all, so I won't speak out further on that subject.

And by the way, about that fanning... What the f:eek::eek::eek::eek:k does Clay do to fan it that fast?! I mean, OH MY GAWD! (A long time since I last saw the video..) Any tips for me to improve that?
 
Originally posted by ixpfah
And by the way, about that fanning... What the f:eek::eek::eek::eek:k does Clay do to fan it that fast?! I mean, OH MY GAWD! (A long time since I last saw the video..) Any tips for me to improve that?
Click to expand...

I think that the "spinning fan" is one of those moves that can lead to a lot of other techniques. I do this a lot when I'm with friends and I don't want to be noisy, as it puts out no sound at all once you get is smooth. It's one of those things that's very hard to explain, as it's mostly in the feel of it. One very important thing is not to hold the bali any tighter than you have to. My belief is that you should always hold a balisong only tight enough so it doesn't leave your hand. If you hold any tighter, you're only hindering the smooth movements in your hand and wrist. When fanning I just make a channel with my 4 fingers, slightly curling the ring and pink finger over the top along while gently resting my thumb on top to keep it where it should be. My fingers actually don't move at all, besides a slight bouncing in my index finger. It all comes from the movement of your wrist. Try doing a fan, but let the blade point up in the air, as opposed to laying flat. Notice that the very middle of the circle you're making is the pivot pin on the safe handle, with the bite handle pulling away as it whips around. The idea, is to offset that imaginary circle so that it's center is a little more toward your bite handle than the pivot pin itself. Kind of lead with the blade for lack of a better explination.

Once you get the feeling down, during regular ricochet manipulation, you can add in a couple of these spins at any time. And boy does it look flashy. You can also see why a something that too blade-heavy won't work well for this.

One more thing just for fun... try this... Do a spinning fan, and change your imaginary circle so that the blade slowly starts to stand up. Spin it blade up for a while, and try to get it to "lay down" again. Go back and forth. This really helps get a feel for saving bad, or unexpected manipulations.
 
Thanks for the thoughts, I'm wondering, though, how differently it would flip. Just to clarify, when I say edge, I don't mean the blade edge, I mean the outside portions of all three pieces (i.e. the tip of the blade, and the outside tips of the handle). So that if you had a tip heavy blade profile (like a tanto - or maybe that new davidson bali) and you had handles that were massively skeletonized on the top 3/4's (the top part nearest the blade) but the bottom part not skeletonized, I thought it would feel pretty similar to flipping a "regular" bali. It would be, for example, as light as the BM4x series, but be able to get a swinging force that was more like the old SS handles.

Does that make sense? Maybe w/ brass handles you could get this exagerated weight distribution that would be interesting...
 
Ah! I gotchya now nybble! That would be VERY intersting to flip. I recall, in the back of my mind, some discussion about adjustable weights in the ends of the handles that you screwed in or out to adjust the balance. Maybe use Ti, sandwich style, and throw in some brass toward the ends (Ti = bread, brass = bologna :D)If you had the BM47 tanto blade, with lots of large piercings on the lower 2/3 that would make the blade about as top heavy as I can imagine. With some math, and a little bit of trial and error, you could balance it out properly, but keep your heavy ends.

Now we need someone crazy enough to do it. Not that there are any crazy people around here. :D :p
 
Dave, thanks! I don't think adjustable would be what I want, basically, I want the balance to be right and wouldn't much want to adjust it after that. Your sandwich idea w/ the heavy spacers is very interesting! I may try to work out some back of the napkin math and see what can be seen to get a maker to try and do it! Hmm..
 
I believe it was Chuck who once mentioned that the BM 44, fights you all the way through manipulations, whereas the BM 45 does not. Excess weight at the tip can impede rather than facilitate manipulation. Thee are some interesting ideas here all the same, and some great looking balisongs in this configuration.
 
Cool I didn't even know what fanning was until I read this and decided to go look...turns out I've been doing it for about a year.
 
RA, I'm curious if the bm tanto was a bear simply because the blade was too heavy? If so, if you had a tanto blade
and drilled some holes towards the base of the blade to lighten it up but keep most the weight towards the tip...

I know that probably has some structural implications, but I've seen blades with holes in them to keep the weight down. And I don't use bali's for any heavy work anyway. :)
 
Chuck can give you a far better answer on how the 44 feels when flipped than I can. I believe the 44 has a flared out pointed end, whereas the 45 has a tapered point. This would indicate that too much weight at the point might be the culprit, and not the overall weight difference which I'm guessing would be minimal (I think they're the same thickness). Regarding the holes in the blade, you said towards the base (tang, pivot area), do you mean towards the tip perhaps? This would be the area that might need "lightening". You're correct about holes and stress risers, but if chamfered properly that shouldn't be an issue except in extreme hard use knives. They do look nice too, don't they.
 
Nybble: As far as I know, there's isn't much advantage in transferring the weight to the edge of the blade, as the tip weight will be more of a controlling factor. Of the three PC/BM Tanto's that I currently own (the Elishewitz BM Custom, the BM 44 and the BM 47) all exhibit the same tendency to accelerate through the swing once the handle engages the tang pin. As if it self levers itself through the swing (that counterweight reference). This action will give a sense of lost of control, as the reaction is disportionally different from a bali with less tip weight. Since that bali is depending on the exterted force on that tang pin from the manipulator. The same is also true of some of the more tip heavy bowie blades in my collection.

As I always said, just because it feels different, doesn't make it better or worse for everyone. It does to that specific person, but it may appeal to someone else. Which means that to find the right balance, it'll simply have to be done on an individual basis.
 
Tony, that's what I meant! I goofed on the subject, which is the root, I think of confusion. I mean tip heavy, so placing the bulk of the weight at the blade tip and the handle tips farthest from the blade (latch side). The idea being to have a light balisong, but to have it sort of flip with the authority of a much heavier handle.. Does that sound more like it'll work, to you? (I thought about engineering in college, but felt you had to be too smart to do that - so I settled for CS :)
 
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