Edge holding versus sharpenability

shootist16

shootist16

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I have been thinking about steels lately. I have seen some posts saying how great steel x is because it holds an edge forever, but is almost impossible to sharpen. This has me wondering. Is that really a good thing? Don't get me wrong. I want a steel that holds an edge well, but that I can sharpen without too much trouble. Isn't there a happy medium somewhere?

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Dennis Bible

....Almost here, The Leading Edge....
http://www.theleadingedgeonline.com

[This message has been edited by shootist16 (edited 06-24-2001).]
 
That is the right question indeed. If you know how to sharpen, having a steel hold an edge for a super long time may not be the best thing if the steel is too difficult to resharpen. I like the balance of the so called high carbon steels (low chromium), especially a steel like 52100. It takes a great edge, holds in for a good length of time, and is not difficult to resharpen.

On the other hand, I carry a 420V gents folder blade made by PJ Tomes that I have yet to resharpen. It opens envelopes and fruit mostly, so it is a light duty knife. After more than eight months of daily use, it still cuts very very well. I just tested arm hair shaving, it still shaves, but is a little grabby. Anyway, when a steel holds and edge like this and has great edge geometry so that sharpening is not a major chore (thin and fully flat ground), it is a good blade material. It may take a little longer to resharpen, but it saves me the trouble of doing weekly touchups.

Every steel is a compromise in some way. You just need to find the balance that works for You.

Paracelsus
 
I have found the D-2 "Enhanced" steel (in my REKAT Sifu) is an EXCELLENT balance between sharpness, edge-holding, and ease of re-sharpening.
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Dann Fassnacht
Aberdeen, WA
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I like my forever-edge-holding steels, like 420V, to have nice thin edges. They still seem to hold an edge forever, but thinner edges are easier to sharpen. I tremble to think what a huge pain it is to re-sharpen thick-edge 420V. Actually, I know what a pain it is, because I reprofiled my 420 folder!
 
Intersting point. Some argue that a steel like 8a is easy to sharpen, takes a very good edge and holds it long enough.

I argue that steels like CPM440V/D2/M2take a very aggressive edge, can shave and hold that edge a long long time. Out of the above CPM 440V is a challenge to sharpen. However, when I am camping for a few days or longer I know that CPM 440V blade will still cut, the 8a blade will not. I know as I have been there and done that. 2 knives were my Military plain edge and my Browning 708 half serrated in 8a. The Browning was almost worthless by the third day. On the middle of the second I was having to use the serrations to do much of the work. On day 5 the Military was duller than day one, but still cut in a manner that did not require a sharpen.

Out and about, you can use a pocket stone etc, but on a big job, that 8a steel folder would have made me stop and get out the stone (building a shelter). I know that a larger fixed blade would have been better, but thats not the point. Sometimes a folder is ALL you are ALLOWED to carry. In the UK I carry a fixed blade as they are still legal. But when you are camping near others, you have to be a bit more sensible and a very large blade is a no no.

If I carry a knife to work or out and about and return home that day, an 8a blade is fine. However each sharpen removes more steel and the knife is wearing out little by little. Better steels are better and last better. Thus they are better value to me.

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
I've said this often, but here's my mantra. Carbon steel with no more than modest chromium is usually easy to sharpen. With enough carbon and/or vanadium they hold an edge well. 52100, O1, or A2 would be good examples.

Once you muck up the alloy with a bunch of chrome your life gets more complicated. While chrome makes the alloy harder to sharpen it does not seem to help maintain the edge. It also tends to make the steel coarse and makes it hard to take a fine edge. I have found that vanadium and tungsten compensate for some of these problems. They refine the grain structure of the high chromium alloy and also make the alloy hold an edge better. At the softer end of the spectrum of this type of alloy are AUS-6 and AUS-8. AUS-8 in particular is balanced to take a razor edge. Going up the scale VG-10 and BG-42 are harder and hold an edge better. They are still reasonable to sharpen from my perspective. Alloys that depend on adding a lot of molybdenum tend to irritate me with how hard they are to sharpen. It's not just how hard it is to remove material, they also are harder to get to a refined edge. So I look for less chrome and more vanadium and/or tungsten. Moly just seems like a pain without sufficient vanadium to smooth it out.

To a lesser degree it still seems like the preceding applies to the CPM steels.



[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 06-23-2001).]
 
I don't know about a happy medium. I like the 154cm/ats-34 steels, but they can be a bear to sharpen if they aren't heat treated correctly. To tell you the truth, I prefer corrosion resistance and sharpenablity (is that a G W Bush word?) over edge holding. That's just me though. I have no problems sharpening a knife after a good few days use. The hard stuff is just a pain in the you know what.

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Lanning L Kann,SSgt,USAF
89th Security Forces Sq
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And I thought it was just my imagination!

Of all the blades I have sharpened, I found my 440V Spyderco Military to be the most difficult and time consuming blade to re-profile and finish to my satisfaction.

I'm very pleased with the final result, but finishing that blade was far more difficult than ATS34, AUS8, CarbonV or other carbon blades.
 
as most of the above posts mention, the two terms are diametrically opposed to each other, 420V being the foremost example...
However......Talonite is one material that holds an edge very well (but doesnt take the crisp razor sharp edge that 420V does- it does get VERY sharp though) and is very easy to sharpen. 420V is hard to sharpen on my variable speed belt grinder......the stuff just plain resists wear!!!!!!! Can you tell that I am impressed....look for a bunch of TNTs with 420V blades this fall.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jeff Clark:
Once you muck up the alloy with a bunch of chrome your life gets more complicated. While chrome makes the alloy harder to sharpen it does not seem to help maintain the edge. It also tends to make the steel coarse and makes it hard to take a fine edge.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark </font>
Click to expand...

Preach it Brother!

I do like 420V/S90V. The new particle metallurgy techniques allow the making of stainless steels that will take great edges and hold them. But these steels are probably best suited for small blades with thin edge geometry and owners who know how the resharpen.

I am not sure that it would work well on production knives like Benchmades. The company would have to radically rethink it's edge geometry, and customers would love their knives until the get dull, and stay that way because it is difficult to resharpen them. If someone was forced to undertake an edge re-profile job on a 420V blade, I am sure they would be very frustrated and unhappy.

Common stainless steels like ATS34/CM154 are Okay, but not great from a using standpoint. In fact, I have yet to find a high chromium steel that balances the equation as well as 52100. But if you have to have stainlessness, you have to make a trade off.

I think a lot of folks out there have never actually used or sharpened a carbon steel blade, having been exposed mostly to various stainless steels. There are a several makers who produce folding knives with 52100 blades. I think a lot of folks would be pleasently surprised by how well this steel Works.

Thanks for the alchemy lesson Jeff!

Para
 
There are lots of happy mediums: 440C, 1084, 5160, 154CM, A-2, O-1, and on and on.

The CPM steels are not hard to sharpen! They are hard to grind and hard to reprofile, but if you touch them up when they start to go dull, they sharpen as easily as anything else in my opinion. With an edge that is anything short of worn off, a couple strokes on a steel, a couple strokes on a fine ceramic, and they are sharp. You can sharpen them half as often as other stainless, and they will still be just as easy to sharpen.

You don't want CPM steels on a big field blade though in my opinion. A truly dull edge from high stress work like chopping or digging could be very hard to sharpen with a small field sharpener or a flat rock, that's for sure. But for a knife that you use for medium work in proximity to your house and your usual sharpening kit, S90V (the steel formerly known as CPM420V) rules.
 
For me, 52100 seems to hit the sweet spot between edge holding and ease of sharpening better than anything else.

But don't pay any attention to me...I'm one of those reactionary types who also likes 1095.
 
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