Edge refinement on kitchen knives

[Toothy Wolf]

I have been sharpening my own knives for the past few months. I use the Professional line if Naniwa stones and have gotten fairly good at using them. I practice when ever I can get the chance and have gotten the hang of raising and removing a burr. I can put a clean toothy edge on the blade on a 400 stone and polish it up to the 10000 stone. I was curious to see at what point any of you stop your refinement on these stones in particular. It seems that most knives in the kitchen use a combination of push cutting and slicing and there for a mid ground between toothy and polished. I really enjoy the sharpening process as a hobby this far. And anyone who has given me there knife has been quite pleased with my results. But I guess I’m venturing down that rabbit hole of searching for the ultimate edge.

 

[chalby]

Just my opinion, but if you want to have a nice medium toothy edge, I would say stop at 800-1000 grit for a naniwa and then use a strop with a fine compound to give that finishing touch. If you want a bit more polished edge, stop at about 3000 grit then strop. Anything finer than 3000 will start to be polishing and give you diminishing returns in performance vs effort to get there, although will be better for push cutting.

 

[Working Edge]

I have been sharpening my own knives for the past few months. I use the Professional line if Naniwa stones and have gotten fairly good at using them. I practice when ever I can get the chance and have gotten the hang of raising and removing a burr. I can put a clean toothy edge on the blade on a 400 stone and polish it up to the 10000 stone. I was curious to see at what point any of you stop your refinement on these stones in particular. It seems that most knives in the kitchen use a combination of push cutting and slicing and there for a mid ground between toothy and polished. I really enjoy the sharpening process as a hobby this far. And anyone who has given me there knife has been quite pleased with my results. But I guess I’m venturing down that rabbit hole of searching for the ultimate edge.

I have been down the rabbit hole and back out, regarding a finely polished edge vs a toothy, more utilitarian edge, and have arrived at (for kitchen knives,) my desired result, that of a medium-toothy edge brought about by 1000/6000-grit stone honing, followed by stropping on suede leather charged with green compound.
The double-sided stone I use is a WorkSharp Whetstone; very reasonably priced, hard-cutting water stone.
This sequence gives my kitchen knife customers a sturdy, aggressively cutting edge, which seems to last a while between touch-ups.

 

[HeavyHanded]

For me, about a 400 grit edge with a 6-8k microbevel is near perfect.

 

[David Martin]

I stop at a fine India, 320 grit with kitchen knives. And don't strop, I remove the burr on that stone. This level is enough refinement. DM

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I like either of a 320-400 finish, OR a thin & shallow polished convex, depending on usage. For general use across the board in the kitchen, the more toothy edge works well and is very easy to maintain on a Fine India, sometimes following with more delicate refinement on a medium Spyderco ceramic.

I do have some fondness, however, for the near-mirror-polished, thin & shallow convex I've put on an inexpensive 5" Farberware santoku that I dedicate to fine chopping jobs with fruits & veggies. It's not necessary for that job, but it just feels great in it's effortless cutting through these food items. It's great fun to use, when I slice & dice an apple for a snack in the afternoon.

 

[Craig James]

For breaking down meat I stop at the 800 chosera, for veggies I go to 6000 on my petty, gyuto and santoku knives.

I strop on bare leather as it just helps me clean up the edge

 

[maximus83]

400-grit Arctic Fox to refresh bevel, micro-bevel with DMT 2200-mesh ceramic 'steel'.

 

[Jason B.]

Its less about the stone and more about the knife.

I sharpen soft stainless with a 120 grit belt on my grinder and polish on a leather wheel, good Japanese knives I finish around 2000-4000 grit on waterstones. Sometimes up to 8k or 10k for sushi knives.

While a 320 grit edge will work on a Henckles or Swiss knife it will be far too rough and unrefined on a Japanese knife that has much harder steel.

FYI, Naniwa recommends the Chosera 3000 for most kitchen knives (as long as the steel is hard enough).

 

[Toothy Wolf]

Its less about the stone and more about the knife.

I sharpen soft stainless with a 120 grit belt on my grinder and polish on a leather wheel, good Japanese knives I finish around 2000-4000 grit on waterstones. Sometimes up to 8k or 10k for sushi knives.

While a 320 grit edge will work on a Henckles or Swiss knife it will be far too rough and unrefined on a Japanese knife that has much harder steel.

FYI, Naniwa recommends the Chosera 3000 for most kitchen knives (as long as the steel is hard enough).

Thanks for the input. I didn’t realize Naniwa had a list of suggestions. I visited their website a while back and must have missed it. Gonna check it out again

 

[Toothy Wolf]

For breaking down meat I stop at the 800 chosera, for veggies I go to 6000 on my petty, gyuto and santoku knives.

I strop on bare leather as it just helps me clean up the edge

I tried out the 800 before a I cut up a couple chicken breasts today and like the edge very much.

 

[maximus83]

While a 320 grit edge will work on a Henckles or Swiss knife it will be far too rough and unrefined on a Japanese knife that has much harder steel.

FYI, Naniwa recommends the Chosera 3000 for most kitchen knives (as long as the steel is hard enough).

Hey Jason good to see you!

Would this recommendation apply to Japanese knife typical VG-10, where it's VG10 at the core around 60 HRC, clad in some outer soft layer? I have 3 of the Tojiro's DP series in this steel, always interested in finding ways to eke better performance out of these.

ETA: I should've added, I don't have a Chosera on hand but I do have a great Baryonyx Ptarmigan stone (4000 JIS) that I've used in the past. I used to use that on other knives with great effect, in the end I got lazy and cut my 3-step process for sharpening kitchen knives, down to just the 2 I listed above. But given your point, I could easily add the Ptarmigan back into the process in place of the DMT ceramic, and then use something like a Spydie UF ceramic to cut the micro.

 

[maximus83]

For me, about a 400 grit edge with a 6-8k microbevel is near perfect.

HH, recently I saw a posting by Cliff somewhere where he was talking about his theory on microbevels. He gets a little verbose and hard to follow, but he seemed to be arguing for a very acute secondary bevel that you refine and polish, combined with a more TOOTHY primary/micro-bevel a few degrees higher than the secondary. The logic being I guess that the refined and acute secondary improves performance going through material, while the toothy micro improves cutting aggression while also improving edge durability and retention.

What do you think of that idea, for example say that you put your 6-8k finish on the secondary, and put a toothy 800-1K on the micro? Horsefeathers, or some validity? I haven't gotten around to trying it on a blade yet but found it interesting.

 

[Jason B.]

Hey Jason good to see you!

Would this recommendation apply to Japanese knife typical VG-10, where it's VG10 at the core around 60 HRC, clad in some outer soft layer? I have 3 of the Tojiro's DP series in this steel, always interested in finding ways to eke better performance out of these.

ETA: I should've added, I don't have a Chosera on hand but I do have a great Baryonyx Ptarmigan stone (4000 JIS) that I've used in the past. I used to use that on other knives with great effect, in the end I got lazy and cut my 3-step process for sharpening kitchen knives, down to just the 2 I listed above. But given your point, I could easily add the Ptarmigan back into the process in place of the DMT ceramic, and then use something like a Spydie UF ceramic to cut the micro.

I don't use microbevels on much, I don't feel they have the benefits many claim they have. Selecting the correct apex angle and softening the shoulder has always shown me better performance. Truthfully, I only use microbevel on Japanese traditional single bevel knives like the Yanagi and Deba because the edges get so thin.

The ONLY time I go above 2000 or 3000 grit is when its a Sushi knife, Veggie knife or a straight razor. To be honest a 1k king would be perfectly fine for nearly any task and is the most popular in kitchens because it offers that perfect balance. Aggressive enough to set an edge but fine enough to make a sharp, clean cutting tool.

Now on to your question... Yes, VG-10 is one of those steels that like a bit of polish. The DP line is popular and I've sharpened thousands of them and even have some myself. I really like the Naniwa pro 400 combined with the Naniwa Aotoshi 2k. Second, my favorite, the 500 and 2k Shapton Glass. The Naniwa polishes more but both offer high degree of sharpness with good edge retention qualities. For many years now I have been using a two stone system and its mainly to get the coarsest and most polished edge at the same time because having tooth and polish in the edge in balanced amounts will offer you the best cutting edge. FYI, I believe 4k is too polished for a chef knife unless the steel is VERY hard, the knife is used on a soft cutting board and the user has expert level knife handling skills... and even then the edge polish is just going to be for fun, IMO.

P.S. I often carry a VG-10 Endura and have done so for probably 10 years. Shapton Glass 500-2000-1 micron strop... this has been the progression I've used since getting my Glass Stones. Perfect edge IMO.

 

[HeavyHanded]

HH, recently I saw a posting by Cliff somewhere where he was talking about his theory on microbevels. He gets a little verbose and hard to follow, but he seemed to be arguing for a very acute secondary bevel that you refine and polish, combined with a more TOOTHY primary/micro-bevel a few degrees higher than the secondary. The logic being I guess that the refined and acute secondary improves performance going through material, while the toothy micro improves cutting aggression while also improving edge durability and retention.

What do you think of that idea, for example say that you put your 6-8k finish on the secondary, and put a toothy 800-1K on the micro? Horsefeathers, or some validity? I haven't gotten around to trying it on a blade yet but found it interesting.

To me that doesn't make sense. The idea behind the micro is that the finer abrasive (which is less likely to disturb the structure and form a burr) shapes the apex. Ideally this is the finest abrasive you can manage. This is overlayed on a relatively coarse finish in this case. This allows you to do three things:
- customize edge finish to a fairly precise level of tooth without needing a specific stone

- make a toothy edge that is thinner across the apex yet push cuts better and is just as durable as the base rough edge.

- craft an edge very quickly since the primary might only see a single stone, likewise the cutting edge. If a woodworking tool or otherwise highly refined edge is needed you can add a bridge stone before the micro to eliminate all irregularity.

Ultimately only the last few microns do all the cutting.

 

[Jason B.]

I tried out the 800 before a I cut up a couple chicken breasts today and like the edge very much.

Personally, my opinion, just saying, my $0.02...

When breaking down meats I think a 6in boning knife is tough to beat. Sharpness is a bit irrelevant at this point but I would say a coarse stone and a honing rod (preferably ceramic) is probably the best method to keep it in proper working order. Same story with Japanese boning knives, they are thick and kind of hard to sharpen and rarely take a "good edge" by most standards so again a coarse stone and a ceramic rod is ideal.

Making fine cuts is a bit different, I think a tall thin blade at high hardness with as much polish as the steel can handle is best. It's less damaging to the meat and allows for more precise cuts. An 800 grit edge will work but a 4000 grit edge is superior in almost all ways.

 

[Toothy Wolf]

Personally, my opinion, just saying, my $0.02...

When breaking down meats I think a 6in boning knife is tough to beat. Sharpness is a bit irrelevant at this point but I would say a coarse stone and a honing rod (preferably ceramic) is probably the best method to keep it in proper working order. Same story with Japanese boning knives, they are thick and kind of hard to sharpen and rarely take a "good edge" by most standards so again a coarse stone and a ceramic rod is ideal.

Making fine cuts is a bit different, I think a tall thin blade at high hardness with as much polish as the steel can handle is best. It's less damaging to the meat and allows for more precise cuts. An 800 grit edge will work but a 4000 grit edge is superior in almost all ways.

Thanks for the input Jason B. I have a 3000 and a 5000 but not a 4000. I going to try out the 3000 my next go at it. Tried the 5000 hit the edge didn’t seem to have enough bite to it for some tasks. Grated it may have my technique. Of gone threw a hundred or so sharpening in the past few months so I’m still inexperienced. To be honest none of my knives had had the chance to gut dull so I still have no idea how my edge retention is on my blades. But I do enjoy it.
Thanks

 

[Jason B.]

Sometimes its about the steel and hardness, depending on the knife it may not be able to handle a 5k edge and this is why it felt like it lost cutting ability. Its like asking the best edge angle, there is no real good answer its only whatever works for that specific knife and task in the hand of the user.

5k is fine, I just used 4k as an example, fyi.