Edge refinement. Why?

[knife chop]

So you have a new knife and it came shaving sharp from the factory. my question is what are the benefits of refining that edge even more?

 

[EyeDog]

I have this obsession that no matter how sharp my knives are---they could be sharper.

That's my reason.

 

[stvpourciau]

Also to wear away any metal that got to hot near the edge on the factory's belt sander.

Plus there not usually "sharp" just toothy, Even if it does take hair

 

[HwangJino]

For me, shaving sharp is not that sharp. Also I've never been impressed by a factory edge either.

 

[HeavyHanded]

So you have a new knife and it came shaving sharp from the factory. my question is what are the benefits of refining that edge even more?

If the edge is working well for you, then the answer is there are no benefits. Sooner or later it'll get dull and you'll have some decisions to make. I've had a handful of factory edges come screaming sharp, but I like to set my finish to the use of the tool. Some will be polished, some will be toothy. Normally I let the factory edge go till it gets dull, assuming it was sharp to begin with and make changes then.

Added to the above comment regarding factory edges frequently being cooked a bit and not very stable, is often a good idea to clean them up with a fresh grind anyway.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

So you have a new knife and it came shaving sharp from the factory. my question is what are the benefits of refining that edge even more?

For most of my life, I'd always assumed a 'factory edge' was basically as sharp as it could get. Paradoxically, I seldom was satisfied with the factory edges on most of the knives I bought. Took a very long time of 'obsessing' over that, before I finally used a guided sharpener to 'refine' an edge to a level that completely turned my assumptions about 'sharp' upside down. Only then did I realize that a factory edge is only 'good enough' (most of the time) to call the product 'ready' for the market, but nowhere near as good as it could be. So now, I re-bevel and refine most every new blade I lay my hands on; I've never looked back, and I've yet to find a factory edge that I couldn't make better (for me).

In more specific terms, I feel the greatest benefit of 'refining' a factory edge is establishing new geometry that's a natural fit for my hands, when re-sharpening. I noticed early on, my own hands tend to 'find' a certain angle on their own (usually a little below 30° inclusive), when sharpening a blade. If that angle isn't a good fit to the 'factory edge' already on the blade, even simple maintenance of the edge is more tedious and frustrating. That all changes after putting new bevels on the blade, at an angle that's comfortable and natural for my hands to hold. It's sort of amazing how much easier an edge can be tuned up, just by starting off with the right 'foundation' in place. Maintenance becomes a breeze after that.


David

 

[Bob6794]

At bare minimum now days I take it to a quick strop and than enjoy the knife assuming they did a good job at the factory. So far that is a fairly short list of knives I like how they came out of the factory and most of the ones I do this to are actually temporary measures till I get around to actually sharpening them myself.

 

[knife chop]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I have another question, I've read somewhere where cliff said he does not like honing/stropping because it degrades the edge. What's your guy's opinion on that?

 

[SteelStickler]

^^ this is just untrue. Honing is literally sharpening. Saying you shouldn't hone a blade because you might do it wrong doesn't stand to reason. Same thing with stropping; if you know what you're doing and have good technique/proper material for the job then its a fruitful and elegant maintenance strategy. If you don't know how, you'll round off your apex and feel like a twit.

There are considerations about what substrate/abrasives are best for different blade steels, but a wholesale writing off of stropping or sharpening is silly.

 

[Bob6794]

^^ this is just untrue. Honing is literally sharpening. Saying you shouldn't hone a blade because you might do it wrong doesn't stand to reason. Same thing with stropping; if you know what you're doing and have good technique/proper material for the job then its a fruitful and elegant maintenance strategy. If you don't know how, you'll round off your apex and feel like a twit.

There are considerations about what substrate/abrasives are best for different blade steels, but a wholesale writing off of stropping or sharpening is silly.

:thumbup:

Wish I could add more to that, but honestly you hit about everything I was going to say and than some.

 

[midnight flyer]

I think there are a lot of reasons to sharpen a new knife. The last few traditional knives I have purchased have been dull, the edges being a guide as to which side of the blade was to be the cutting edge. The "sharpening" goes from a complete rebevel to just a quick sharpening. I don't mind so much a knife getting dull after use, but I can't stand putting a dull knife in my pocket.

Also, like David said, it is a personal thing. I agree that it makes it easier to maintain once I have the edge >> I << want on the knife. Maintenance can be done in just minutes, if not less.

I also put different edges on different blades depending on their intended use. I even put different edges on the blades of multi bladed knives. For example, if I am carrying a large stockman, the main blade is a bit toothy sharp stopping the sharpening at around 800gr. The sheepsfoot gets to about 1200gr, and I take the spey to 1200 and then strop to polish as the spey is the blade I use on my cigars.

I find the finer the edge the more likely it is to deform, roll, or dull, so I am lucky to have the luxury of many knives to sharpen the way I find them most useful. That being said, I never seem to be able to leave the factory edges alone, and I feel like I have made the knife mine once I have it sharpened, cleaned and properly oiled.

Robert

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

^^ this is just untrue. Honing is literally sharpening. Saying you shouldn't hone a blade because you might do it wrong doesn't stand to reason. Same thing with stropping; if you know what you're doing and have good technique/proper material for the job then its a fruitful and elegant maintenance strategy. If you don't know how, you'll round off your apex and feel like a twit.

There are considerations about what substrate/abrasives are best for different blade steels, but a wholesale writing off of stropping or sharpening is silly.

:thumbup:

Wish I could add more to that, but honestly you hit about everything I was going to say and than some.

:thumbup:
I concur. That sums it all up very nicely.

The only way stropping can/will degrade an edge is, if it's done with poor technique (angle, pressure) or without giving thought to what materials (substrate, abrasives used) best contribute to what the edge actually needs and what the steel will best respond to. This is exactly the same criteria that'll make the most difference in creating the edge in the first place, BTW.


David

 

[knife chop]

:thumbup:
I concur. That sums it all up very nicely.

The only way stropping can/will degrade an edge is, if it's done with poor technique (angle, pressure) or without giving thought to what materials (substrate, abrasives used) best contribute to what the edge actually needs and what the steel will best respond to. This is exactly the same criteria that'll make the most difference in creating the edge in the first place, BTW.


David

Sorry i take it back. like i said I've read it somewhere and it's been a long time. my curiosity made me look for it. here's what Cliff said.




in general I would not recommend stropping because it tends to be used as a crutch and tends to degrade the stone sharpening.

If I was to strop then I would want a very hard abrasive on a very hard medium and use it very lightly to prevent from degrading the edge.

Diamonds and CBN are both decent stropping media.

The nice thing about the sprays is that you can just spray them on newsprint, use that until it gets loaded or just dusty and then just spray another sheet.&#65279;

 

[stvpourciau]

Loading strops and such is akin, to if not exactly, sharpening.

To me , to strop is like to steel; its to unroll and straighten out that worn edge.

Stropping can (does) generate heat, that can do damage to the very fine edge on your knife.

That said, I use wet media, just like a wetted stone, to strop my edge

I got hold if some nice high density foam padding I cut from my backpack and wet it. Works great and is portable

 

[singularity35]

Cliff says a lot of things, most of them controversial...

Sorry i take it back. like i said I've read it somewhere and it's been a long time. my curiosity made me look for it. here's what Cliff said.




in general I would not recommend stropping because it tends to be used as a crutch and tends to degrade the stone sharpening.

If I was to strop then I would want a very hard abrasive on a very hard medium and use it very lightly to prevent from degrading the edge.

Diamonds and CBN are both decent stropping media.

The nice thing about the sprays is that you can just spray them on newsprint, use that until it gets loaded or just dusty and then just spray another sheet.&#65279;

 

[dalefuller]

Cliff says a lot of things, most of them controversial...

So true...

But still, I like reading Cliff's posts. I've learned a lot from him over the years (both ways) and I still enjoy reading his newer stuff over on Syderco's factory forum. We part company on stropping, though. I've been stropping my blades for years both after coming off the Sharpmaker and in place of the Sharpmaker. Done right, it's a great way to straighten / reset a used edge so that you don't have to go to a more abrasive media like a stone or rod. After a sharpening, I use stropping to help remove any burr and add a bit of refinement to the edge.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Sorry i take it back. like i said I've read it somewhere and it's been a long time. my curiosity made me look for it. here's what Cliff said.




in general I would not recommend stropping because it tends to be used as a crutch and tends to degrade the stone sharpening.

If I was to strop then I would want a very hard abrasive on a very hard medium and use it very lightly to prevent from degrading the edge.

Diamonds and CBN are both decent stropping media.

The nice thing about the sprays is that you can just spray them on newsprint, use that until it gets loaded or just dusty and then just spray another sheet.&#65279;

I can generally agree with most of that. Some do tend to 'mindlessly' over-strop (using it 'as a crutch'), not giving any consideration to what the objective really is and what is best-capable to accomplish it; then they wonder why their edge isn't as good afterward. That speaks to the 2nd point mentioned, in that making the right choices with compound and substrate can make all the difference, and can almost negate the need for going back to stones, save for major edge repairs or re-bevelling and such tasks.

Cliff mentions here that he favors very hard compounds. My own take on that is, match the compound (AND substrate) to the steel and the desired edge finish; sometimes the ultra-hard compounds like diamond or CBN will be overkill on something like 1095, very quickly overpolishing it; whereas green or white (aluminum oxide) can more easily finesse the tuning-up of steels like these, without quickly erasing much of the bite and character left by the stones. Along those lines, I've yet to find anything that works better on my favorite 1095 blade, than some green compound on the inside (sueded) face of my leather belt, used as a hanging strop. I've tried and tried and tried all sorts of other combinations of compound/substrate/backing, but always retreat back to that particular combination to 'fix' what all those other experiments couldn't do quite right.


David

 

[toker]

There are lot of companies that put a good factory edge on their knives, but I haven't seen one that I couldn't improve with a few passes on my Wicked Edge. I've also reprofiled knives with a less than optimum angle like my ZT0777. It came with a factory edge of 23 degrees per side, which is not nearly acute enough for a steel like M390.

 

[Jason B.]

Why?

Because IMO a factory edge, even if able to shave, is not a refined edge and very often at a obtuse angle which does not cut well. I want MY edge on the knife regardless of what grit I finish it at.