Edge retention discussion EDC

lutejones

lutejones

Joined
Mar 15, 2007
Messages
730
Hello guys,
After the great discussion on the thread @Masibu started about edges dulling too fast, and the beautiful information provided for our friend from down under @wootzblade about CATRA tests, and their extrapolation to edge retention.
I’ve been thinking and these are some ideas I took:
- most factory grinds are way too thick and the same happens with the sharpening angles
- “super steels” don’t show much improvement in edge retention over low alloyed steels if you don’t take the angle way lower
- if you take the angle low (less 25° inclusive) on those high alloy steels you could start having issues with edge stability including chipping due to high hardness and brittleness
- the low grind-ability of those types of steels makes you think over twice when facing a task prone to provoke edge chipping (like cutting a steak over a ceramic plate)
- contrary to the popular belief acute angles improve edge holding when wear resistance mostly is concern.

What I take from those ideas is a reaffirmation on my believes that a simple carbon steel with a thin grind and a sharpening angle of 25-30° inclusive is the best steel for my needs in an EDC blade

Also that super steels excel at repetitive cutting chores when edge stability is a minor issue but you have to take them way lower that it’s often recommended.

To end this large post and begin the discussion I’ll throw a question
How do super steels hold up in field dressing and butchering game? Last time with some 440c and S30V on a 140 pounds wild boar(really tough skin and hair and full of dirt,here in Spain at least) I had to sharpen two times each indifferently of steel metallurgy
I know that people swear by Phil Wilson work on that scenario.
What do you guys think about both EDC and hunting with super steels?
 
The reason for the super steels in edc mostly used for opening mail and cutting cardboard is to give people a reason to buy. And you can bet there will be another super steel soon. It drives the market. As far as dressing game? No idea. I'm not a hunter. I think as long as people realize this it's fine. Anyone that thinks they can abuse these knives by smashing rocks with them will be disappointed. Lol.
 
 
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Bill3152 said:
The reason for the super steels in edc mostly used for opening mail and cutting cardboard is to give people a reason to buy. And you can bet there will be another super steel soon. It drives the market. As far as dressing game? No idea. I'm not a hunter. I think as long as people realize this it's fine. Anyone that thinks they can abuse these knives by smashing rocks with them will be disappointed. Lol.
Click to expand...

Thanks mate, sure that pure marketing is one of the motives behind the proliferation of new steels.


Mo2 said:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/

https://www.youtube.com/user/CedricAda
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit#gid=1607644856


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC76o8bpHyEpBaysM9Pr83Og
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IA8Bup15LyghOsmEbEBEaUUlvImh094tVQTSXjNm1-E/edit?usp=drivesdk


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_ZXbN06A7W937hKKnUfqQ

https://www.youtube.com/user/RuslanKiyasov
https://kiyasov.com/youtube/


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkyjtlBvdDuZtF5NemXkZAg


One more
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC-cvUqhuR--z1uUAXqMzaw

Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time for posting the links but almost none of them have anything to do with what I was asking and half of them are in Russian.
I was hoping for preferences and opinions in two very specific situations like edc having to cut rubber, plastic, wood, some cardboard, food, plastic ties,etc And also in hunting and the choices of steel and overall grinds and angles you prefer.
Anyway it doesn't seem very polite to just throw a rain of links without even a comment
 
2 of them are Russian. And they all have to do with edge retention which is the name of the thread. Not only that but some of the videos on those channels talk about some of what you just mentioned.
 
I don't hunt ( puny city slicker here )
but
I do cut wood to a super fine finish with edge tools alone. This is a similar task to the boar in that the wood, from batch to batch, can have vastly different quantities of mineral content and can either behave and get along or eat blade edges like popcorn.

In that case I use an alloy that I like if given a choice or I use the best thing I can find . . .
and this is where I can just work and geeeter done :
I have a pile of pre sharpened blades and just reach for a sharp one when the previous edge gets too dull to do the job.
Link>>>> to photo for what it is worth; page down a couple of photos.


For a pocket knife I swear by M4, and so far I use it at the factory edge geometry because they got it freekin' right on ! ! ! ! Spyderco ! ! ! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: (Para 2, Military and Gayle Bradley One)
and yes most all the other blade alloys, sharpened shallow and thin or not SIMPLY CAN NOT EVEN TOUCH M4 for the abrasive rubber cutting that I do daily. M390 comes pretty close
as far as edge stability for the exact same task S110V was well below that and at times a complete fail compared to steel like VG-10 and CTS-XHP.

Take many knives, in the steel you like, in the knives you like and you will be a happy hunter :thumbsup:
Now you have a reason to buy all those various handle materials you couldn't quite justify before :p

Sure; go with Phil and his superior S110V if you like. He knows hunting; I sure don't.
A whole pile of Phil's knives . . . you will certainly be the talk of the camp.
 
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I am a hunter and have been skinning and butchering game most of my life.

I used to help my grandpa butcher several steers a year.

I'm sure there will be plenty of smarter and more experienced knife users who will disagree with me,but for a hunting knife, when you are going to be impacting bone and cutting across hair matted with sand and dirt and other edge dulling, abrasive and gritty things, there is a point of diminishing returns on steel that is too hard, and therefore hard to sharpen quickly and easily.

I don't have tremendous experience with a lot of the modern "super steels," but for hunting knives, I like 1095, 52100 and A2 about as well as anything, because I like to keep the edge touched up and cutting well to reduce fatigue if I have a lot of skinning to do.

The guy that will only field dress a deer or two a year can agonize over steel.

If you are going to do a lot of processing game, ergonomics and blade geometry are probably bigger issues than the number of cuts your knife can make on cardboard and still slice paper.
 
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Wowbagger said:
I don't hunt ( puny city slicker here )
but
I do cut wood to a super fine finish with edge tools alone. This is a similar task to the boar in that the wood, from batch to batch, can have vastly different quantities of mineral content and can either behave and get along or eat blade edges like popcorn.

In that case I use an alloy that I like if given a choice or I use the best thing I can find . . .
and this is where I can just work and geeeter done :
I have a pile of pre sharpened blades and just reach for a sharp one when the previous edge gets too dull to do the job.
Link>>>> to photo for what it is worth; page down a couple of photos.


For a pocket knife I swear by M4, and so far I use it at the factory edge geometry because they got it freekin' right on ! ! ! ! Spyderco ! ! ! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: (Para 2, Military and Gayle Bradley One)
and yes most all the other blade alloys, sharpened shallow and thin or not SIMPLY CAN NOT EVEN TOUCH M4 for the abrasive rubber cutting that I do daily. M390 comes pretty close
as far as edge stability for the exact same task S110V was well below that and at times a complete fail compared to steel like VG-10 and CTS-XHP.

Take many knives, in the steel you like, in the knives you like and you will be a happy hunter :thumbsup:
Now you have a reason to buy all those various handle materials you couldn't quite justify before :p

Sure; go with Phil and his superior S110V if you like. He knows hunting; I sure don't.
A whole pile of Phil's knives . . . you will certainly be the talk of the camp.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the response, I’m also into woodworking, here is my Instagram account @43gradosnorte.
But like as with knives I follow the same approach and use almost exclusively O1 on bevel down planes, with the chip breaker close to the cutting edge for difficult grains/species.
That’s a nice array of veritas blades hehe. I use that bevel-up jack almost only for end grain at 25°, find it hard to push for high angle smoothing.
I really would like to try M4 and maybe 3V for EDC

Coonskinner said:
I am a hunter and have been skinning and butchering game most of my life.

I used to help my grandpa butcher several steers a year.

I'm sure there will be plenty of smarter and more experienced knife users who will disagree with me,but for a hunting knife, when you are going to be impacting bone and cutting across hair matted with sand and dirt and other edge dulling, abrasive and gritty things, there is a point of diminishing returns on steel that is too hard, and therefore hard to sharpen quickly and easily.

I don't have tremendous experience with a lot of the modern "super steels," but for hunting knives, I like 1095, 52100 and A2 about as well as anything, because I like to keep the edge touched up and cutting well to reduce fatigue if I have a lot of skinning to do.

The guy that will only field dress a deer or two a year can agonize over steel.

If you are going to do a lot of processing game, ergonomics and blade geometry are probably bigger issues than the number of cuts your knife can make on cardboard and still slice paper.
Click to expand...

I Agree my most used knife in this scenario is a muela kodiak(drop point hunter style) that’s very comfortable in hand.
The point I see is that in real use if you hit a bone it dulls every knife no matter what’s made of and is more valuable that the edge won’t chip and comes back quick.
Thanks for first hand experience ;)
Edited to add
Here it is
7F5ABA65-9994-4867-A9CD-AA90F809B86C-520-0000008851CD876A.jpg
 
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