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Edge retention of A2 vs 3V
- Thread starter bushcraft
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2008
- Messages
- 2,032
I agree, CPM3V is a pain to sharpen. It will last a long time though, so it doesnt need to be done often atleast.
Thanks to the generosity of a good friend, I have been given the opportunity to put one of the new CPM 3V Lil Canadian’s to the test.
Usually I test in the woods, but somehow it seemed that I would need more then cutting paracord and cross grain batoning to truly test the abrasion resistance claims of the 3V.
I decided to do the testing on the job-site, a place that can truly put the test to any blade steel.
I decided I would test this knife head to head with an A2 Barkie; the Fox River Recurve was the knife I selected to face the abuse.
I also included a Custom Pro-Drop Point (50-100B) in the early testing.
All of the blades handled the mundane job-site cutting jobs like cutting cardboard, plastic sheathing, poly tarps, even rope, with ease.
Once we started testing on materials that had been impregnated with the sandblasting debris the story quickly changed.
The 50-100B, which quickly strops-up scary sharp, was first to dull, and went from “shaving paper” to “won’t cut paper” fairly fast when exposed to debris coated tarps; the 3V and A2 where still cutting paper easily at this point.
From here I moved on to testing the blades on debris impregnated ropes. There where two different types of rope; each dad been exposed to a very dusty sandblasting environment.
Both the steels cut well at first, but within a short time the 3V blade was cutting more cleanly and required less force to cut then the A2 blade.
Pushing on, I found an old car tire and decided to have at it. The tire had already cut through, and I tested both blades on the non-belted sidewalls.
Both blades, even in their less then razor sharp condition, cut the tire easily, the 3V blade was a little sharper but the extra length on the handle of the A2 blade negated any advantage.
Next I moved on to a fiber reinforced rubber air hose. By now the 3V was showing its abrasion resistance and it felt shaper to the touch then the A2 blade. Both blades still continued to cut well, but the 3V Lil Canadian held the edge on sharpness.
When it comes to the ultimate test of abrasion resistance, I can’t think of a rougher job the cutting open 100 pound bags of sandblasting abrasive.
Not only are there several layers of dust impregnated heavy duty paper, the edge has to part all of those densely packed abrasive particles; this makes cutting sandpaper seem like tissue paper.
Three days in a row I started with freshly sharpened and polished edges on both the 3V and 2A blades.
On the first day each blade was used to cut eight sandbags, the edges on both where very dull, and both had trouble cutting paper.
The Second day was only four bags apiece, and even that was enough wear to diminish their cutting efficiency.
On the third day I had the edges once again polished to a paper slivering edge.
I careful cut open one sandbag with each knife.
Inspecting the edges reviled that the abrasive in the bags had raised a large burr on each blade, large enough to impact the cutting efficiency of each blade.
It looks like the sandbag test was too tough for either (maybe any?) knife steel.
What did I learn?
When it comes to sharpening these blades,
...I found the 3V only marginally more difficult.
I used a belt grinder followed up by hand stropping;
...each knife went from dull to scary sharp in less then 10 minutes.
The 3V does seem to be a bit more abrasion resistant,
…but the A2 is still a very tough contender.
Big Mike
Usually I test in the woods, but somehow it seemed that I would need more then cutting paracord and cross grain batoning to truly test the abrasion resistance claims of the 3V.
I decided to do the testing on the job-site, a place that can truly put the test to any blade steel.
I decided I would test this knife head to head with an A2 Barkie; the Fox River Recurve was the knife I selected to face the abuse.
I also included a Custom Pro-Drop Point (50-100B) in the early testing.
All of the blades handled the mundane job-site cutting jobs like cutting cardboard, plastic sheathing, poly tarps, even rope, with ease.
Once we started testing on materials that had been impregnated with the sandblasting debris the story quickly changed.
The 50-100B, which quickly strops-up scary sharp, was first to dull, and went from “shaving paper” to “won’t cut paper” fairly fast when exposed to debris coated tarps; the 3V and A2 where still cutting paper easily at this point.
From here I moved on to testing the blades on debris impregnated ropes. There where two different types of rope; each dad been exposed to a very dusty sandblasting environment.
Both the steels cut well at first, but within a short time the 3V blade was cutting more cleanly and required less force to cut then the A2 blade.
Pushing on, I found an old car tire and decided to have at it. The tire had already cut through, and I tested both blades on the non-belted sidewalls.
Both blades, even in their less then razor sharp condition, cut the tire easily, the 3V blade was a little sharper but the extra length on the handle of the A2 blade negated any advantage.
Next I moved on to a fiber reinforced rubber air hose. By now the 3V was showing its abrasion resistance and it felt shaper to the touch then the A2 blade. Both blades still continued to cut well, but the 3V Lil Canadian held the edge on sharpness.
When it comes to the ultimate test of abrasion resistance, I can’t think of a rougher job the cutting open 100 pound bags of sandblasting abrasive.
Not only are there several layers of dust impregnated heavy duty paper, the edge has to part all of those densely packed abrasive particles; this makes cutting sandpaper seem like tissue paper.
Three days in a row I started with freshly sharpened and polished edges on both the 3V and 2A blades.
On the first day each blade was used to cut eight sandbags, the edges on both where very dull, and both had trouble cutting paper.
The Second day was only four bags apiece, and even that was enough wear to diminish their cutting efficiency.
On the third day I had the edges once again polished to a paper slivering edge.
I careful cut open one sandbag with each knife.
Inspecting the edges reviled that the abrasive in the bags had raised a large burr on each blade, large enough to impact the cutting efficiency of each blade.
It looks like the sandbag test was too tough for either (maybe any?) knife steel.
What did I learn?
When it comes to sharpening these blades,
...I found the 3V only marginally more difficult.
I used a belt grinder followed up by hand stropping;
...each knife went from dull to scary sharp in less then 10 minutes.
The 3V does seem to be a bit more abrasion resistant,
…but the A2 is still a very tough contender.
Big Mike
A few more thoughts on the Lil Canadian and 3V torture testing.
First let me say that even tough this isnt really a review of the Lil Canadian,
I must say that the knife makes a very handy EDC package.
Here it is pictured with a few other EDC favorites:
Lil Canadian, Huntsman, Escort.
I really like the blade, the leaf shape is as attractive as it is functional.
I think it would make a great blade for a folding knife.
The handle is a three finger affair for me, so the four finger groves dont fit quite right (I would prefer I three finger grove version).
Also, I dont treat all my knives to this kind of use, but the knives I carry on the job site routinely face all of the type of the tasks shown with the exception of cutting the sandbags.
Not only are the sandbags rough on the edge, the sand tends to scratch the sides of the blade, Though I must add that I was a bit surprised to see how well both the 3V and the A2 held up to this abuse, any scratching to either blade was minimal.
The A2 knife, a Fox River Recurve, was universally favored by the workers who helped in the testing. Its bigger overall size and especially its larger handle provided better purchase and move leverage then the smaller 3V Lil Canadian.
Lil Canadian and Fox River Recurve.
There where times when it was important to separate the cutting performance of the knife edge from the perceived cutting performance resulting from the extra leverage.
It easy to forget how much the overall design of a knife plays in its performance, testing different knives with different steels is more of a test of the knife then it is of the steel.
Any difference in the terminal geometry in these two blades was minimized by the fact that they where re-worked on a belt grinder every evening during the testing, and given very similar treatment.
The original edge that came on the Lil Canadian was not as polished as the edges used in testing, and it did not seem to hold up as well as the polished edge.
And, as previously stated, I did not find the 3V to be a problem when it was time for sharpening.
I think anyone who can sharpen A2 will have little trouble handling 3V.
CPM 3V
Big Mike
First let me say that even tough this isnt really a review of the Lil Canadian,
I must say that the knife makes a very handy EDC package.
Here it is pictured with a few other EDC favorites:
Lil Canadian, Huntsman, Escort.
I really like the blade, the leaf shape is as attractive as it is functional.
I think it would make a great blade for a folding knife.
The handle is a three finger affair for me, so the four finger groves dont fit quite right (I would prefer I three finger grove version).
Also, I dont treat all my knives to this kind of use, but the knives I carry on the job site routinely face all of the type of the tasks shown with the exception of cutting the sandbags.
Not only are the sandbags rough on the edge, the sand tends to scratch the sides of the blade, Though I must add that I was a bit surprised to see how well both the 3V and the A2 held up to this abuse, any scratching to either blade was minimal.
The A2 knife, a Fox River Recurve, was universally favored by the workers who helped in the testing. Its bigger overall size and especially its larger handle provided better purchase and move leverage then the smaller 3V Lil Canadian.
Lil Canadian and Fox River Recurve.
There where times when it was important to separate the cutting performance of the knife edge from the perceived cutting performance resulting from the extra leverage.
It easy to forget how much the overall design of a knife plays in its performance, testing different knives with different steels is more of a test of the knife then it is of the steel.
Any difference in the terminal geometry in these two blades was minimized by the fact that they where re-worked on a belt grinder every evening during the testing, and given very similar treatment.
The original edge that came on the Lil Canadian was not as polished as the edges used in testing, and it did not seem to hold up as well as the polished edge.
And, as previously stated, I did not find the 3V to be a problem when it was time for sharpening.
I think anyone who can sharpen A2 will have little trouble handling 3V.
CPM 3V
Big Mike
A very good and very thorough test and review Mike. Especially since you avoided chopping up cinderblocks and stabbing truck hoods 
I found the sharpening issue to be the same as you, I haven't noticed a significant difference in these two steels either and I sharpen by hand.
I found the sharpening issue to be the same as you, I haven't noticed a significant difference in these two steels either and I sharpen by hand.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2008
- Messages
- 2,032
Nice write up mike. Its possible that is different because I am sharpening a scandi and a standard V grind. I have a Koster and a few Fehrmans. Maube the heat treatment is a bit different, or it could be that I suck at sharpening.
The heat treatment makes a big difference.
I believe both the knives I tested are right around 58 Rc,
making the difference in abrasion resistance of the steel the main factor in the edge holding/sharpening equation.
Many makers will run their 3V a bit harder.
Big Mike
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 9,491
Great solid tests Mike.:thumbup:
I guess that is true with a convex grind, as you are only sharpening the very edge. However my 3V knives are Scandi. So you need to remove alot more material to sharpen it. There for you truley see how much more difficult sharpening 3V will be. Also, sharpening systems like Arkansas stones, ceramics, are all but useless against 3V. You need Diamond abrassives or sandpaper works great as well.
I guess that is true with a convex grind, as you are only sharpening the very edge. However my 3V knives are Scandi. So you need to remove alot more material to sharpen it. There for you truley see how much more difficult sharpening 3V will be. Also, sharpening systems like Arkansas stones, ceramics, are all but useless against 3V. You need Diamond abrassives or sandpaper works great as well.
Thanks.
No doubt the Scandi will take more work,
…but that is true of any steel.
Plus I bet some of your blades are a bit harder then 58 Rc.
My point being that when I put A2 and 3V to the same Cutting and Sharpening tests, I found the 3V was not particularly more difficult to sharpen.
I think anyone proficient at sharpening A2 will have little problem adapting to 3V. :thumbup:
Big Mike
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 9,491
Yeah I think Koster does it 62 or so...
NO!! YOU'RE WRONG DAMN IT!!:grumpy:
Kidding
When we going hiking??
Big Mike, thanks for you posting on this. I always like your posts.
So far I've not been able to overcome paying a premium to get a 3V knife yet. Right now I just can justify paying more for minimal improvement.
1095 has been the steel most used by me till the past 4 years or so when I got hooked on A2. The only real improvement I see from 1095 to A2 for my use is that A2 is more rust resistant than 1095 so I have less maintenance with it. Edge holding might be a bit better to.
So far I've not been able to overcome paying a premium to get a 3V knife yet. Right now I just can justify paying more for minimal improvement.
1095 has been the steel most used by me till the past 4 years or so when I got hooked on A2. The only real improvement I see from 1095 to A2 for my use is that A2 is more rust resistant than 1095 so I have less maintenance with it. Edge holding might be a bit better to.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 3,808
Good report Mike, I found it interesting. From my experience, I don't notice huge differences between the steels I use in my fixed blades. I have used A2, 1095 and INFI quite a lot. I fond them all to roll and lose an edge around the same amount of time. A little difference here or there but it is not huge at all to the work I do. I do find INFI and 1095 easier to sharpen than my a2 barkie but that could simply be due to edge geometry and type . People always talk of these magic steels doing this or that but I really havent seen it in all the knives ive owned. I have seen a lot of different steels and I dont notice major differences (I do find that stainless tend to chip a lot more than carbon steels).
. People always talk of these magic steels doing this or that but I really havent seen it in all the knives ive owned. I have seen a lot of different steels and I dont notice major differences (I do find that stainless tend to chip a lot more than carbon steels).Actually I would have been interested to see that 3V canadian go through some torture test. It is not that common to see a thin blade made of über-steel.A very good and very thorough test and review Mike. Especially since you avoided chopping up cinderblocks and stabbing truck hoods