Edge trailing to sharpen on stones?

[rpttrsn]

I have been sharpening knives for many years with my favorite method on a Kalamazoo belt grinder. Fastest results with a great edge. I sometimes, depending on the edge I am lookin for, go down to a 20 micron belt followed with a leather belt with white or green compound. Followed by hand stropping down to 0.25 diamond spray. Recently I have been trying to perfect my sharpening using stones. The belt grinder has always given me the sharpest edge.
My finest stone is a Sharpton glass at 6000 grit. Working on this with a edge trailing method followed by hand stropping on leather w/ 0.5 then 0.25 diamond spray I have equalled or possibly surpassed the belt grinder in sharpness.
Has anyone else found edge trailing on a stone giving them better results then edge leading?

 

[samuraistuart]

For me, it only depends on the stone. If it's a soft water stone, then it seems the edge is slightly sharper with edge trailing than edge leading. But generally speaking, I don't notice a difference if my apex is set with edge leading or trailing motions.

 

[Diemaker]

Using my guided sharpener I have noticed less edge microchipping with abrasives smaller than around 10 micron using edge trailing strokes and less pressure.

 

[Wowbagger]

Has anyone else found edge trailing on a stone giving them better results then edge leading?

Oh heck yes.
But it's complicated. For reprofiling and heavier stock removal I flail away both directions. Then for the final refining I do a lot of edge trailing with some edge leading to debur; but unlike many here I don't go steeper angle I stay at same angle for deburing. Deburing depends A LOT on the stone as well as how you handle the blade.
Short example : can't debur basic stainless with a Spyderco ultra fine ceramic triangle rod but on M4 the ceramic rod is just exactly right. For the Basic Stainless I use a tiny Norton 8,000 water stone hand held watching like a hawk through strong magnification or on the Edge Pro with the methods described bellow.
anyway . . .
getting back to edge trailing for final edge finish . . . I got one thing to say :
Stay right on the EDGE; don't steepen which rounds the edge don't lay back because it loads up the stone and does nothing to the edge because you are not ON the edge.
In other words USE A GUIDED SYSTEM !

As far as powered sharpeners, especially belt sanders
?! ! ! !?
other than the original blade shaping when making the knife.
I have just never . . . I can't imagine . . . I mean . . .
Here; put it this way. I bought an M4 knife for everyday use at work, literally. I refined it a little from the factory on the Edge Pro Apex above and started carrying it. After five months or so all I have used to touch it up is the ultra fine ceramic triangle rod. Where in the hell would a belt sander fit into all this ?
Sorry, sorry
I'm just saying.
M4 is a major exception. So lets get back to a blade steel that needs much more touch up and occasional use of more aggressive grits.
A few strokes at the CORRECT angle (the angle the blade was sharpened at) with a medium coarse stone, edge trailing, followed by the same with finer grit, with maybe one full stroke EDGE LEADING per side to debur (maybe less than a full stroke depending on stone length) followed by maybe two strokes EDGE TRAILING per side to put the final edge on .
Where does all the surface feet per minute and horse power of a belt grinder, even with a super fine belt (generates heat) fit in ?
I just don't . . . I have never found the need to . . .

. . . yes edge trailing with the edge right on the stone.
= edge that easily shaves curls off a single hair while it is still in my arm; and that's off a Shapton Glass 4,000 !
Shapton Glass 6,000? You will probably end up splitting atoms and causing all manner of chaos and mayhem.
Strop ? What's a strop ?

 

[HeavyHanded]

As long as the stone composition has a little mobility/softness, a trailing pass works great. On stuff like ceramics and diamond plates I get a better outcome with a leading pass.

 

[bgentry]

Here; put it this way. I bought an M4 knife for everyday use at work, literally. I refined it a little from the factory on the Edge Pro Apex above and started carrying it. After five months or so all I have used to touch it up is the ultra fine ceramic triangle rod. Where in the hell would a belt sander fit into all this ?

I would respectfully submit that you don't use your knife for any abrasive cutting tasks. Open 20 cardboard boxes with it and then try to shave a single hair off of your arm. Perhaps it will do it. But my experience says it won't. Abrasive materials make even "super steel" blades dull rather quickly.

The belt sander is mainly used when the edge is extremely blunted. But, with a fine-ish belt and a low belt speed, you can do a minor sharpening in under a minute and get good results. I'm speaking from experience with the Work Sharp Ken Onion, not a "real" belt sander.

The need for various types of sharpeners comes down to how hard the knife gets used and how often it gets touched up or sharpened.

Brian.

 

[Wowbagger]

I would respectfully submit that you don't use your knife for any abrasive cutting tasks.

Hi Brian,
Yes and no.
I specifically use M4 to cut rubber products that are pretty abrasive. One has cloth layers and is often old and filthy; full of dirt and even mud.
so
example #1 sounds abrasive . . . to me.
The other thing I cut almost daily is a very hard rubber product with additives to resist wear and abrasion and heat.
Trust me . . . IT IS ABRASIVE and because of the the need to trim small strips off the main block tends to put very significant side loading on the apex. S110V could not hang because of this side loading; the edge would dull in a day. Many other lesser alloys such as VG-10 or AUS-8 etc. can dull to the point the cut is uncontrollable in a day or two; and the cut must be controllable. M4 goes for a month of daily use and is still very controllable.

As far as card board . . . cardboard cutting is all about geometry. I've made quite a study of it. I use a basic Stanley utility blade (the thin 0.4mm original blade as opposed to the more modern 1mm "HeavyDuty" blade and it is dramatically better than anything you could ever put in my hand . . . so
there you go.
These are what I used to use. Besides the handles in the photos below there was a Milwaukee and a Gerber quick release folder I used a lot.

Now due to how easy my current blade cuts, top knife in bottom photo, a reprofiled 0.4mm blade with a little candle wax on it I just use these light handles in the third photo.
It really is the Ferrari of box knives (with that blade and mods); small, light, quick and compact.
(touch the blade slot with a diamond file to make compatable with the handle then just sharpen rather than replace)

 

[bgentry]

Hi Brian,
Yes and no.
I specifically use M4 to cut rubber products that are pretty abrasive. One has cloth layers and is often old and filthy; full of dirt and even mud.
so
example #1 sounds abrasive . . . to me.
The other thing I cut almost daily is a very hard rubber product with additives to resist wear and abrasion and heat.
Trust me . . . IT IS ABRASIVE and because of the the need to trim small strips off the main block tends to put very significant side loading on the apex. S110V could not hang because of this side loading; the edge would dull in a day. Many other lesser alloys such as VG-10 or AUS-8 etc. can dull to the point the cut is uncontrollable in a day or two; and the cut must be controllable. M4 goes for a month of daily use and is still very controllable.

Well, I stand corrected then. While I have not cut the material you are describing, it sounds like it would dull the blades I have experience with in very short order. I've been consistently frustrated with the few "super steels" I have tried; none have been able to really hold up to cutting boxes. ...and I don't even mean directly cutting cardboard. Rather, just opening boxes at the seams. Something about the combination of gunk from the tape and dragging the edge over the ends of the cardboard (and occasionally cutting through a few inches of actual cardboard) just dulls the blades extremely quickly.

I don't really do that as part of my job any more, so I don't have a need. But I'd still like to own a blade one day that performs like you describe: Use it for actual medium hard tasks and still have it shave hair. That would be amazing!

Thanks for the discussion. Oh, and reading about your box cutters was interesting too. I don't have much to say other than what that old man told me years ago: Thin is sharp!

Take care,

Brian.

 

[mycough]

I have a wharncliffe in 10v that I thinned out a bit, it is my cardboard knife.
I can cut up boxes from a 1500$ order of food and it will still shave my arm hair.
Some of luongs knives will accomplish the same task.
It can be done, and the knives can be re sharpened within a reasonable amount of time.

Russ

 

[David Martin]

On my s90v steel I've been knocking off the burr using a fine diamond with back honing strokes. Sometimes on my x fine stone. Just use care to draw it on the exact angle, using low pressure. Seem to me this worked well. Next time I'll try a back stroke on my x fine SiC stone with oil
or water and see how this works. It's the only stone I have that offers some give. DM

 

[rpttrsn]

David Martin,
Thanks for getting this back on the question. I just wanted to share what worked out quite well for me. Will continue to use this method until I come up with something better for me. Was wondering if many others have tried this. I saw this method on a video and felt the person did not know what he was doing. Live and learn. Might not work well for all but give it a try. Nothing to loose.
Ron

 

[bgentry]

Back on topic (as the OP pointed out):

Murray Carter is a pretty respected figure in the sharpening community, having sharpened something like 60,000 traditional Japanese blades, both during his long (13 year?) apprenticeship in Japan, and after in his own business making his own blades, at Carter Cutlery.

Carter has done several for-pay videos on the technique of sharpening. I own his latest ones and found them to be very interesting and informative; recommended. Carter shows that all finishing strokes on the fine stone should be done edge trailing. Of course he is using traditional Japanese waterstones; in his case rather soft King brand stones. I believe that the slurry made by the waterstone tends to inhibit burr formation. This counteracts the natural tendency for a trailing stroke to create a bigger burr than an edge leading stroke.

Other learned members here have repeatedly said that soft stones can be used edge trailing to finish, while hard stones should be used edge leading. In particular, diamond stones are always recommended to be used edge leading. Then again, our man David Martin, just a few posts above talked about his good success using a diamond stone edge trailing! So all rules can apparently be broken if your technique is good enough.

Our guy Heavy Handed designed, built, and sells the Washboard Sharpening System. This is designed to be used with sandpaper, regular paper with compound, diamond films, etc. As such, I guess it's closer to a soft stone than a hard one. Though certainly no slurry. HH seems to get very good results from his Washboard on just about any kind of blade using edge trailing strokes.

My personal experience with belt sanders is mixed. For a while I thought I was getting great edges from just the belts (all the way to 4 micron belts or sometimes higher) and indeed the edges passed most of my tests with ease. Waving through phonebook paper, easily shaving arm hair, etc. But lately I've taken to finishing all of my belt sander edges with the SharpMaker. Edge leading strokes on the SharpMaker. I was sort of shocked the first time I did this and watched a rather enormous amount of burr material slog off of the edge. This was on soft kitchen cutlery and I had taken off TONS of metal as these blades had not been sharpened in (literally) 20 years of continuous use. Perhaps if I had deburred at the end of each belt very carefully, I would not have been left with such a huge burr. The SharpMaker made short work of it however, and I ended up with what seemed like great edges. I will continue to use this method for a while until I figure out something else, or settle on this as my standard belt sander finishing method.

Brian.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Back on topic (as the OP pointed out):

Murray Carter is a pretty respected figure in the sharpening community, having sharpened something like 60,000 traditional Japanese blades, both during his long (13 year?) apprenticeship in Japan, and after in his own business making his own blades, at Carter Cutlery.

Carter has done several for-pay videos on the technique of sharpening. I own his latest ones and found them to be very interesting and informative; recommended. Carter shows that all finishing strokes on the fine stone should be done edge trailing. Of course he is using traditional Japanese waterstones; in his case rather soft King brand stones. I believe that the slurry made by the waterstone tends to inhibit burr formation. This counteracts the natural tendency for a trailing stroke to create a bigger burr than an edge leading stroke.

Other learned members here have repeatedly said that soft stones can be used edge trailing to finish, while hard stones should be used edge leading. In particular, diamond stones are always recommended to be used edge leading. Then again, our man David Martin, just a few posts above talked about his good success using a diamond stone edge trailing! So all rules can apparently be broken if your technique is good enough.

Our guy Heavy Handed designed, built, and sells the Washboard Sharpening System. This is designed to be used with sandpaper, regular paper with compound, diamond films, etc. As such, I guess it's closer to a soft stone than a hard one. Though certainly no slurry. HH seems to get very good results from his Washboard on just about any kind of blade using edge trailing strokes.

My personal experience with belt sanders is mixed. For a while I thought I was getting great edges from just the belts (all the way to 4 micron belts or sometimes higher) and indeed the edges passed most of my tests with ease. Waving through phonebook paper, easily shaving arm hair, etc. But lately I've taken to finishing all of my belt sander edges with the SharpMaker. Edge leading strokes on the SharpMaker. I was sort of shocked the first time I did this and watched a rather enormous amount of burr material slog off of the edge. This was on soft kitchen cutlery and I had taken off TONS of metal as these blades had not been sharpened in (literally) 20 years of continuous use. Perhaps if I had deburred at the end of each belt very carefully, I would not have been left with such a huge burr. The SharpMaker made short work of it however, and I ended up with what seemed like great edges. I will continue to use this method for a while until I figure out something else, or settle on this as my standard belt sander finishing method.

Brian.

Brian, when I am doing stuff on the belt grinder I've taken to finishing on a hard stone of some sort.

If its high VC/ high carbide content steel I take it to a diamond plate F to EEF, edge leading, depending on the intended use. Other steel types get finished on a waterstone of some sort depending on the type of knife, usually finished with trailing strokes. Then a few passes on a Washboard with stock compound to clean it up and make QC faster/easier.

My 100% belt grinder edges are good, but I feel a lot better about them since switching to a two method strategy. Cosmetically not as clean as my hand sharpened stuff but the quality is right there.

I do normally deburr on the belt - run it backwards at about 1/10 speed.

 

[rpttrsn]

Heavy Handed,
I have followed most of your posts re: washboard sharpening system. I have acquiredmost types of sharpening systems over the years. At 72 I am trying to back off on my purchases of knives and systems to put a edge on them. It’s very hard. My boys don’t seem to have 1/10 the interest I have in knives. Stones of all types, paper wheel, Edge Pro, Kalamazoo grinder, spyderco sharp maker etc. I have a interest in your washboard as I enjoy sitting at my workbench and working with knives. Edge trailing has sparked a new way for me to sharpen to the degree I want to see. If I can rationalize buying another sharpening method it would be your washboard.
Thanks for your response.
Ron

 

[HeavyHanded]

Heavy Handed,
I have followed most of your posts re: washboard sharpening system. I have acquiredmost types of sharpening systems over the years. At 72 I am trying to back off on my purchases of knives and systems to put a edge on them. It’s very hard. My boys don’t seem to have 1/10 the interest I have in knives. Stones of all types, paper wheel, Edge Pro, Kalamazoo grinder, spyderco sharp maker etc. I have a interest in your washboard as I enjoy sitting at my workbench and working with knives. Edge trailing has sparked a new way for me to sharpen to the degree I want to see. If I can rationalize buying another sharpening method it would be your washboard.
Thanks for your response.
Ron

Thanks for saying so!
I don't promote heavily on the forum anymore but I still make and sell them, and use mine for finishing just about everything I do. When used with sandpaper I think of it as sort of a ghetto silicon carbide waterstone. They technique is identical to what I use on my softer waterstones.

Used as a strop is a little different.