Edges and points

Gary W. Graley

“Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Mar 2, 1999
Messages
27,487
Hi Folks, I am a bit of a nut about sharpening, and cutting things up even if there seems to be no need for them to be cut up, just ask my wife ;)

Wanted to pass along some things that I do to check the edge and the point of the knife after sharpening.

As a recent thread mentioned, nice photo of hairs too, that hair isn't a consistent medium to test sharpeness, it's fun but can be misleading. Phone book paper or receipt paper can give better results as to seeing how cleanly the edge can push cut through them.

But I also check for how the bevel angles are, I keep my bevels fairly narrow but try to keep the shoulders rounded for better cutting, one test I do, seems odd, again my wife's input, but I'll take a Johnson & Johnson's Q-tip as they are quite hard material. I'll press down on the spine of the knife perpendicular to the Q-Tip and see how much force it takes if it can at all, to get through the material. Thinner blades usually do well, but even thicker blades can too if sharpened properly. While it might slice paper it might not get down through that Q-tip easily. Another would be to see how well it can push cut down through a book, some knives will just leave an impression and not make the cut. Now, I've found if you angled the Q-tip to the blade it will cut a lot easier at an angle as opposed to directly across the Q-tip, must be how the paper is wound up.

And the point, it's always good to have a nice sharp point right? You can feel the tip to see if it catches on your finger tip, but I'll take a paper towel quilted Bounty is soft and supple, so with it being soft it takes a quite sharp point to pierce through the material. I'll hold a section of the paper towel between my fingers and try to gently push the point through the material. IF it does not have a sufficient point, it will push the paper towel inward until you force it through, a really sharp point will not push but just enter into the material. Imagine it being enlarged many times and picture the tip as being a round ball, it doesn't penetrate as well as an acute tip. Also I use the Bounty to see how well the blade cuts, a very sharp knife will glide through that material cleanly.

Here's a couple shots of a knife going though a book, the first is my Le Compact by Chambriard, it's grind brings the edge down quite thin so you see it has a minimum edge bevel.

phonebook.jpg~original


While the very nice Spyderco Pingo for it's small size had the blade ground down but the bevel area was a bit thicker so you can see I softened the shoulders of the edge bevel to allow it to cut through this book, which was a pretty tightly bound book but she cut down through.

Pingo_book.jpg~original


and of course I can't help but test it on my arm hair, which my wife truly hates me to do, but, as I've mentioned before, we have a Constitutional Right to Bare Arms... ;)
G2
 
There is sharp and there is blade geometry. Your tests explore both. Be careful attempting to make meaningful comparisons from the blades shown to some of the "hard use" knives I have had sent here for sharpening;)

Some of these knives can be sharpened to extremes, but due to their grind, assymetry, and thickness behind the edge, they will require a lot more force to get through a qtip or book;)
 
One basic and old test I have lately started to like is to roll toilet paper to tube and make a clean slice to it with a knife. If edges apex is uniform it will make smooth slice and if the edge was burr free while slicing the knife will still shave cleanly. Opinions about this test?
 
Thanks I use some shapton stones that are fitted up to be used in an edgepro but I hand hold the stone and hand hold the knife as I sharpen.

As to tough use knives, check out this old video of Jimmy Fikes, scroll out to about 13:30 minutes in to see him cut through a book, he also does this kind of test with swords as well. As mentioned it's geometry that helps in the cutting.

This video also shows his Jungle Honey short sword, what a cutter she is!

[video=youtube;YddZTesy--s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YddZTesy--s[/video]

G2
 
Gary, the top picture made me giggle. It reminded me of my first attempt to cut through a phone book with a chopper. Problem was I didn't cut through the binding and had a thousand pieces of paper to pick up. Never made that mistake again.
 
Haha, yep, the binding is crucial. I cut one up for a guy at work, a bit thicker than that one but I cut it into a small rectangle so he had a miniature phone book, he keeps it to this day and shows people, they don't believe that someone with a pocket knife could cut down through that as cleanly as it was, he always smiles when he shows it off.

And I just sharpened up my small Case Tuxedo, it was still pretty sharp but the points were not keen.

As to the points, to get them needle sharp, what I do is strop backwards along the spine of the tip of the blade as material from sharpening can push up and above the point, so just a tiny bit of stropping there and then on a leather strop, cleans the very tip up nicely.

G2
 
Thanks I use some shapton stones that are fitted up to be used in an edgepro but I hand hold the stone and hand hold the knife as I sharpen.

As to tough use knives, check out this old video of Jimmy Fikes, scroll out to about 13:30 minutes in to see him cut through a book, he also does this kind of test with swords as well. As mentioned it's geometry that helps in the cutting.

This video also shows his Jungle Honey short sword, what a cutter she is!

[video=youtube;YddZTesy--s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YddZTesy--s[/video]

G2

DANG! And I was just starting to feel good about my edges. How sharp does an edge have to be to do that? Draw, push, tree topping or hair whittling? Atom splitting maybe? Also, Gary, have you ever bothered to take calipers and see how thin those two knives are behind the edge?
 
The Chambriard is about 17 thousandths just above the bevel's edge, the Pingo was a lot thicker, I don't have that one at the moment but I know it was more than what I thought such a small slip joint folder should have.

G2
 
cutting things up even if there seems to be no need for them to be cut up

Ah the world of illusion and confusion
Only by disecting and cutting up can you find the constituted parts

And yes the first thing I do with new knives is sharpen then to a much more acute angle knocking off the shoulders
 
My family bought me a Kindle reader for Christmas this past year, I guess they took notice of my ever dwindling library as well ;)
G2
 
Thanks I use some shapton stones that are fitted up to be used in an edgepro but I hand hold the stone and hand hold the knife as I sharpen.

As to tough use knives, check out this old video of Jimmy Fikes, scroll out to about 13:30 minutes in to see him cut through a book, he also does this kind of test with swords as well. As mentioned it's geometry that helps in the cutting.

This video also shows his Jungle Honey short sword, what a cutter she is!

[video=youtube;YddZTesy--s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YddZTesy--s[/video]

G2

That is truly impressive .
I didn't have time to watch it all , but did get up to the book cutting .
Does he talk about how he sharpens those blades ?
What steel are his blades made from ?
During the making of this video there are obvious edited breaks between his tree chopping , do you think he is touching up the blade between cuts ?
Man , I have to learn how to sharpen my knives properly . I can get them to shaving sharp , but I now realise that is considered blunt compared to what is possible .

Ken
 
Thanks I use some shapton stones that are fitted up to be used in an edgepro but I hand hold the stone and hand hold the knife as I sharpen.

As to tough use knives, check out this old video of Jimmy Fikes, scroll out to about 13:30 minutes in to see him cut through a book, he also does this kind of test with swords as well. As mentioned it's geometry that helps in the cutting.

This video also shows his Jungle Honey short sword, what a cutter she is!

[video=youtube;YddZTesy--s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YddZTesy--s[/video]

G2

Very cool, I'm going to have to try that with my Chef's knife and one of my machetes. I don't think I have any Kitty Kelly around though, maybe some Russel Banks...
 
Thanks guys and Ken not sure on the steel in there, I'm sure it's carbon something and it's a very very old video from back in the day. I don't know what went on during the breaks or cut outs but when you get to see more you'll see him using a diamond stone to sharpen a tanto up and a strop plus a buffer with very light grinding compound so it doesn't remove much metal.

OleyFermo aka Jimmy Fikes knows sharp for sure ;)
G2
 
One basic and old test I have lately started to like is to roll toilet paper to tube and make a clean slice to it with a knife. If edges apex is uniform it will make smooth slice and if the edge was burr free while slicing the knife will still shave cleanly. Opinions about this test?

Sorry didn't respond to this sooner, the TP test is interesting but it does depend on what brand you have, and if you cut with or against the way the paper is formed, almost like super thin corrugated cardboard, one way it might cut cleaner than if you rotated the square 90 degrees.

I don't put a lot of stock in that but one 'Quick' test is to see if the edge will push cut into typing paper, don't try to slice the paper, but see if the edge has reached it's apex far enough that it doesn't present a road block to enter into the edge of a sheet of paper. At Ashokan we had Dave Martell was on hand, he is known for his Japanese Knife Sharpening , High Performance Edges. And I noticed that he would frequently check to see if his blade, during sharpening, would make a short push cut into a sheet of paper.
G2
 
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