Educate me on Damascus

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steelhead seeker

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Can someone explain something to me about damascus steel. Damascus is just folding steel over and over and over to achieve a pattern on the blade correct? But that steel started as a certain type of steel (high carbon tool steel or like s30v, s35vn or whatever...) correct? So why are all damascus steel knives just labeled as damascus? Does the whole process of forging and folding so many times change the steel and that's why its just damascus now? And if that's the case then is there low grade damascus and higher grade and how do they measure that? I'm basically wondering what the difference would be between say a $100 kershaw damascus blade vs say a chris reeve damascus blade. I know price could reflect the number of layers, the pattern and time spent making it but would the properties of the blade be any different...I'm really clueless when it comes to this. I hope my questions made sense.
 
The steels used in Damascus are usually stated unless it's cheap. Maybe certain knife manufacturers/sellers don't list it, however.
 
Larrin said:
The steels used in Damascus are usually stated unless it's cheap. Maybe certain knife manufacturers/sellers don't list it, however.
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This was my original thought but if you go to blade HQ, set Damascus blade as a filter and then sort by price high to low, even the highest priced knives on the site ( I'm the several thousand range) still only say Damascus as blade steel. No mention of what the steel started as. I've looked at a ton of knives now from cheap $50 range through $4000 and there is no mention of what the steel is. But that also goes along with one of my earlier questions, does it even matter what it was? Is it entirely something new now after all the forging and folding and have different properties now?...
 
First off. It is at least 2 types of steel. From your post I’m not sure you realized that. If you did I apologize.

Secondly. I think most steel snobs turn their noses up at Damascus because they believe it is inferior to today’s steels. I think most will agree now it is more artistic. So the types of steel are not as relevant as the patterns created.

Unless they overheated it, they wouldn’t change the characteristics of the steel.

In any case the heat treat is far more important than the type of steel anyway.

I agree they should tell you what steals are used.
 
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I started a thead called "fall of Damascus" and there's interesting info in there too.
I think now days, you must be careful for 'Damascus' is now available as billet from whoknowswhere (Pakistan).
Some blades are just done by stock removal so that's why they are inexpensive. Think less than a hunski.
Most smiths with say what it is ie, 1095 + XXaaXX or at least they'll say it was hand forged. I think the real stuff is +$100.

Watch out for purists; real Damascus is called wootz and a different animal from pattern welded steel, which is what the layman calls 'Damascus.'
I believe the process of forming is different.
I think the consensus is that Damascus, real or pattern weld, is still inferior to today's super steels and considered more for aesthetics than strength.

I too have been looking for a 'Damascus' blade and have a hard time navigating all the pitfalls!
For the real deal, I would work with a smith and avoid the manufacturers or midtechs.
I'm also thinking that san mai is maybe the way to go.
 
Damascus Steel or Wootz is extinct. The process to make it is long lost. What you know as modern day "damascus" is actually Pattern Welding. It is just done for aesthetic purposes, nothing more. There is no improved performance compared to a knife made with a single type of steel.
 
Larrin said:
I wouldn't put things in terms of "Damascus vs super steels." Any steels can be used in Damascus, including "super" steel.
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Legendary_Jarl said:
Damascus Steel or Wootz is extinct. The process to make it is long lost. What you know as modern day "damascus" is actually Pattern Welding. It is just done for aesthetic purposes, nothing more. There is no improved performance compared to a knife made with a single type of steel.
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Now if one were to pattern weld using a newer 'super steel' could one gain an advantage?
 
Legendary_Jarl said:
Damascus Steel or Wootz is extinct. The process to make it is long lost. What you know as modern day "damascus" is actually Pattern Welding. It is just done for aesthetic purposes, nothing more. There is no improved performance compared to a knife made with a single type of steel.
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this is not necessarily correct either.

Wootz damascus process was lost for a very long time.

It was then, and is now, a crucible steel. The ingredients are sealed in a crucible and cast as an ingot.

There are several makers doing crucible Wootz steel today.

The carbide banding found in the original wootz damascus, is being recreated by makers

https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html#Verhoeven

There are Russian makers creating modern Bulat steel (their term for Wootz damascus), as well.
 
The process for making wootz is only "lost" in that we don't know exactly how they made it, though that is true of virtually any ancient product. The metallurgy behind how the structures are formed is understood, however, and those structures can be replicated.
 
Is that like when they create an ingot in a closed container like on Forged in Fire? then they cut away the container and use just the cast ingot?
 
jideta said:
Is that like when they create an ingot in a closed container like on Forged in Fire? then they cut away the container and use just the cast ingot?
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The way I've seen it done is in stoneware/ceramic considers sealed. And then fired.

The necessary ingredients in proper amounts have to be present, and you have to hit the correct temperature etc.

Then when cooled down, the vessel is broken away, and the ingot revealed. Ir is not until later you know if you were successful or not.
 
I don't entirely know that a steel container would work for this process, as you are not just forge welding the steel to Temps, i believe you are getting into melting Temps for steel. To get all of the ingredients into solution. Melting temperatures.
2800 degrees in one video I watched.
I could be wrong on that, as i have only seen videos, never been present or attempted it.

I believe crushed glass is one of the ingredients. It deals over the top inside the crucible, and gets cracked off when opening, getting the ingot out of the crucible.

 
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So what steel(s) is/are used to make the Damascus blades of CRK? They do not mark the steel type(s) do they? What I can see is that everything else the same, a sebenza of a Damascus blade is $200 more expensive than that of a s35vn blade. Clearly in this case, Damscus does not fall, but flies high.
 
sharp_edge said:
So what steel(s) is/are used to make the Damascus blades of CRK? They do not mark the steel type(s) do they? What I can see is that everything else the same, a sebenza of a Damascus blade is $200 more expensive than that of a s35vn blade. Clearly in this case, Damscus does not fall, but flies high.
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CRK use Devin Thomas Damascus for long time before change to Chad Nichols Damascus several years ago. Both makers use AEB-L/304.
 
Now that the brief history lesson is over more on to the OPs question it varies by who made the damascus is the short answer. CRK uses the Damascus made by a particularly well known maker who does disclose what steels are included. There are also other options like Damasteel which is a name brand Damascus that is made using powdered metallurgy though how exactly it is done is likely a trade secret for the company. For some knives like a Kershaw Skyline I don't know what the source is but I would expect a company such as Kershaw to be getting something to at least consider as a quality steel.
 
PirateSeulb said:
Now that the brief history lesson is over more on to the OPs question it varies by who made the damascus is the short answer. CRK uses the Damascus made by a particularly well known maker who does disclose what steels are included. There are also other options like Damasteel which is a name brand Damascus that is made using powdered metallurgy though how exactly it is done is likely a trade secret for the company. For some knives like a Kershaw Skyline I don't know what the source is but I would expect a company such as Kershaw to be getting something to at least consider as a quality steel.
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Damasteel reports the two steels they use (RWL-34/PMC27) and they also have a patent so to some extent the process is known.
 
Legendary_Jarl said:
Damascus Steel or Wootz is extinct. The process to make it is long lost. What you know as modern day "damascus" is actually Pattern Welding. It is just done for aesthetic purposes, nothing more. There is no improved performance compared to a knife made with a single type of steel.
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Damascus or Wootz steel seems to have been reproduced to an extent in recent years on a minor scale. From what I read, it is not pattern welded steel. It took certain natural alloys (rarely occurring) and forging techniques that happened to have a pattern.

Pattern welded steel was forgotten for awhile, apparently, but there are many beautiful examples of shotgun barrels from Europe that used it long ago. True works of art. But not Damascus or Wootz.

355647752.jpg
 
Thanks for all the replies. Yea I was mostly curious because if I buy one I'm going to carry and use it and I wasnt sure how people would gauge how well the blade will hold an edge, how hard it will be to sharpen, just its overall performance, having no clue what steels are even used.
 
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