Educating & Bringing On New Makers?

Kevin Jones

Kevin Jones

Joined
Oct 28, 2006
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As per previous threads, there seems to be concerns that new custom knifemakers are entering the industry at a disproportional ratio to new collectors. If this trend is true and continues, the industry may very likely suffer as a result.

There’s also been discussion on the subject of makers (especially mastersmiths) training and nurturing these new makers and if it presents a positive or negative affect on the customs market.

The construction industry has always been very dependent upon the masters of the various skilled trades to bring in and train the apprentice and journeymen to insure the needs of the industry are met.

As we know, the ABS was founded on the basis of the above principle of initiating education and training of new bladesmith. I was fortunate enough to make my second visit the ABS school in Old Washington AR. just the other day and was again amazed at the facility and the work the ABS instructors are doing.

The question has been asked if these established knifemakers are in fact training their competition?

In the construction industry, it’s a little different IMO as the masters aren’t training possible competitors but rather craftsmen to support their contracting companies and to work along side them. And in regard to labor unions, work and compensation is usually determined by seniority of the master so he’s not as much at risk of losing compensation or jobs if a journeymen he trains rises to the master level and performs at a higher level then the training master.

Some experienced and knowledgeable collectors frown upon sharing too much knowledge with new collectors as they see them as possible competitors in acquiring today’s great knives. However perhaps by educating these new collectors they are in fact ensuring there are great knives to buy in the future.

I’m not taking a position here, but merely asking the question for discussion as this topic will have an affect on the customs industry in the future. ;)

• Do you feel that established makers are in fact, by this training and nurturing making it too easy for new makers to enter the industry and risk aiding in their own demise?

• Ultimately, do you fell the industry will be impacted negatively or positively by this training/nurturing?

• How do you feel about the rise in the quantity of knifemakers in general?

Thanks in advance for you opinions and views. :thumbup:
 
Knifemaking is a strange occupation. Most makers I know share any and all information they have with new makers.

I attend a hammer-in in North Georgia as often as I can. The whole point of this hammer-in is to freely share information and train new makers.. Why do knifemakers have this desire to train others? I dont really know and have never really given it much thought.

It's just plain fun to share for some reason.

Looks to me like the influx of new knives would just provide more fruit for the collectors to pick through. Just because a knife is made , doesnt mean it will be bought.
 
As a collector, I don't think that it is bad to have a lot of new makers entering the field. It gives me more to choose from. It also won't affect the top makers, because they have more orders than they will be able to fill in five years. The makers it affects the most are those that are also trying to get a foothold.

Competition is good. It keeps makers on their toes. If an established maker sees his orders declining, because better makers have come along, that is the law of the jungle. It is up to him to show that he is still the alpha maker. Those that refuse to sit on their laurels will not have to worry about up an comers.

It does mean that established makers are going to have to become good at the business part of knifemaking, if they are not already.
 
One of the few things that i have learned since i have started makeing knives is that new makers will weed themselves out. Once an individual figures out how much work is involved and the blood sweat and tears it takes to finish a knive they either go after it whole hog or they make one or two knives and quit. One of the first MS's i approached for help told me that he would assist me for one reason and one reason only and that was the fact that i had forged my first knife with a ball pein hammer and a oxy/aceteline torch. he said that showed the desire to do what it took. I believe that is the same reason some makers charge for shop time to teach. if an individual is willing to put up a chunk of money usually about the price of a good quality MS hunter they are going to take the time to learn and not just waste the MS's time.
 
Although some decry the dearth of new collectors, all of these knives that are being made have to be going somewhere. There seem to be a lot of newer makers out there who appear to be selling enough knives to keep them interested in their hobby. As in any other field of endeavor, there is a fair degree of attrition, but I would guess that the custom knife biz is bigger than ever and continuing to grow. The serious collector market may be somewhat stagnant or not, but what percentage of the entire market for custom knives is that? The custom knife business has an advantage that most other "custom made" businesses do not. Price of admission to the club......you can buy a rather nice custom hunter for about the same price as a really nice pair of men's dress shoes or a decent sport coat.
 
Let's face it, the discussions we have had on this forum point to a successful maker as having good business sense. Promotion, pricing, value, skills, etc.

That said, a successful maker has to trade this good business sense, which may also include not divulging trade secrets or proprietary skills to your competition, for the training and apprenticeship of newcomers.

I am certain there are some who tread carefully here, and I would NOT fault them.

All that said, the knifemaking world does NOT appear to have such a closed-door policy as I have heard in other crafts/arts/trades. I think the balance will be made individually by each teacher, on whether they can stand to initiate new makers.

No one forces one to be a new maker, and no one forces the teachers to divulge. It's always their choice.

Coop
 
We have helped a good many people that were interested in making knives at hammer-ins, knife shows and at our shop. We will answer most questions, not because someone helped us, but because it helps us develop our customer base. Most people that are serious about becoming a good knifemaker will figure it out whether you help them or not. It doesn't really matter what you tell them. They can do it anyway, if they really want to. Those that aren't serious can't do it no matter what you tell them. So it doesn't matter what you tell them either. Those that ask are interested in knives and many will buy them if you spend some time with them. Many in these threads talk about the maker that sits behind that table at the show and doesn't get up and talk with the customer, or won't give the customers any time on the phone or e-mail. That interaction between the customer and the maker is vital to developing a relationship that will result in knife sales. While the conversation is going on, the topic is usually knives, not mountain bikes or their favorite beer. Some ask how to do things because they want to know how the maker does it. Just as there are some on this forum that want only a knife that is forged, there are collectors (read knife buyers) that want only knives that are forged by using a hammer and an anvil. Talking with a maker is a good way to find out how he does things that you can't see by looking at his knives. Asking "how" forces the maker to explain his procedure. We don't mind explaining any thing we do because it might be helping a future customer decide if he is comfortable with our work. If it is a potential competing knifemaker that is asking, that is fine too. It takes more than one maker to make a knife show.
 
3 years ago at Blade I was talking to a European knifemaker who was displaying there, and he said that he found American knifemakers to be open and forthcoming about techniques and very helpful. He said that the European masters weren't. Maybe that was just his experience. Any knifemaker know how things are in Europe and the other countries? I get the sense that in Brazil they're pretty open and share knowledge with each other.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
As a collector, I don't think that it is bad to have a lot of new makers entering the field. It gives me more to choose from. It also won't affect the top makers, because they have more orders than they will be able to fill in five years. The makers it affects the most are those that are also trying to get a foothold.

Competition is good. It keeps makers on their toes. If an established maker sees his orders declining, because better makers have come along, that is the law of the jungle. It is up to him to show that he is still the alpha maker. Those that refuse to sit on their laurels will not have to worry about up an comers.

It does mean that established makers are going to have to become good at the business part of knifemaking, if they are not already.
Click to expand...

I am in complete agreement with Keith. Competition helps advance the quality of the work that we see.
 
Also...you can learn to hold a brush correctly and the fundamentals of perspective and color choice, but that doesnt make you Van Gogh. To me, knifemaking is much like the Zen idea that "nothing is hidden." Even when every possible resource and bit of information about every tiny step of knifemaking is at your fingertips doesnt mean you can apply them in sucession, skillfully, artfully, and in a timeperiod that you dont go broke or nuts.

I guess its like learning to drive....we all got taught how to drive and took the same license test....but that doesnt mean everyone is a good driver. Teachers can only impart so much on a student....its up to that student to replicate, embellish, and perfect the process for himself.

Now....if i came up with a way to do something better, faster, with superior results than anything else out there and I told everyone how to do it....then I would be a kind man, but a stupid businessman.
 
Grapevine said:
3 years ago at Blade I was talking to a European knifemaker who was displaying there, and he said that he found American knifemakers to be open and forthcoming about techniques and very helpful. He said that the European masters weren't. Maybe that was just his experience. Any knifemaker know how things are in Europe and the other countries? I get the sense that in Brazil they're pretty open and share knowledge with each other.
Click to expand...
That may be changing. There was a fair sized hammer-in outside of London this past weekend wherein certain smiths were divulging all....or at least some of their damascus pounding secrets:D
 
When I got interested/started, it was in the time that I refer to as "The Dark Years". I was a poor Airman First Class in the Air Force, still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my daughter. After learning of the ABS and some of the top makers therein, and being in a situation where I didn't know anything, I decided to call a couple of the better known makers and ask some questions. One of the individuals told me "I don't talk to NEW knifemakers." I was very hopeful when the second one was willing to speak to me. However, during the short conversation, when I asked a question, I was told..."You'll have to come to my shop for that information." (long pause), "and I charge $400 a day for you to come to my shop." That was pretty much the end of the conversation. My question? "What type of solder do you recommend for guards?"
I was so frustrated and angry that I thought to myself, "If I ever become a knifemaker, I will never charge anyone for help."
As I became a better maker, many individuals came to my shop, wanting to learn. At first I let anyone who showed a glimmer of interest in the door. Since I had been treated so rudely, I was determined not to do the same to others. However, I quickly learned that very few actually had the drive and desire to do what it takes. Most of the time I would hear comments such as "When are we going to finish this knife!?" "This takes too long!" "This work is too hot and dirty!"
When it finally sunk in that most of these individuals were just wasting my time, and keeping me from making my own knives, I decided that the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff, was to start charging for my teaching. That cut way down on the "riff-raff", but to this day, only about 1 in 10 of every person who comes to me for classes ever does anything with it.

In the early 90s, we started the Montana Knifemaker's Association with the thought in mind of sharing information, and I like to think that since it was one of the first regionalized organizations with that goal, we helped start the trend of sharing. Afterwards, many other regions started their own organizations, and since, the level of sharing information has blossomed. I'm not tooting the MKA's horn here, but the fact that most of the Montana (and later the whole Northwest area) fed off of each other, is why we, as a group, went so far, so fast.

OK, I got a little off track. To the questions that Kevin asked....

1. I don't believe that by training new makers, we will realize our own demise. As I told one individual who was surprised with the level of sharing I provided during a class..."We could live next door to each other, and a client could send both of us the same sketch of a bowie to produce. We could each make it, and we each would have a different knife."
As Erik first mentioned, few will have the drive and determination to take it beyond a knife or two. Those who do, will certainly earn it.

2. IF the individuals who are coming up look at knifemaking as an art form,(and not ONLY from the monetary aspect) and have the passion, it will be a positive for all of us. That will encourage/force all the established makers to push themselves to a higher level, and to continue to offer better and better knives.
If the individuals being taught only see the dollar signs, it will be a negative. Worrying about the number of hours you have in a piece, verses how much you can get for it, often leads a new maker to sloppy work that looks "hurried". Those who have the "passion" for knifemaking will understand this, and those who don't have the passion will likely never.

3. There are certain more new makers in this day and age than ever before. It really isn't a major issue for me. As I mentioned earlier, only about 1 out of every 10 individuals who come to me for formal training, ever do anything with it. Those who do, have earned it through their hard work and determination. Beyond the business aspect of knifemaking, there are other rewards besides the money. Two that come to mind for me are Jon Christensen and Dana Hackney. I trained both of these individuals. Jon has achieved both his JS and MS, winning the Hastings and B.R. Hughes awards along the way. During all of that, Jon and I have become the best of friends, sharing not only knifemaking skills and ideas, but enjoying each others company.......something that goes way beyond the money.
Dana recently won Best New Maker at Blade West, and his future in Knifemaking looks bright. He has also become a dear friend.
Recently, when my Dad passed away, both Jon and Dana (along with a number of other makers/friends), where there for support when I needed it the most. That meant more to me than selling all the knives I could ever make.
Looking at it from the "business" aspect, either of these individuals could me considered my competition. But to me they are dear friends, and that friendship carries meaning far beyond the dollars and cents aspect of what we do. Of course the money is important, without it knifemaking would be just a hobby, but unlike some, who are all "hardnosed" business to the end, it is not the MOST important thing for me. I still have to live and pay my bills like everyone else, but the richness that I have experienced from the human aspect of knifemaking is the greatest gift this craft has given me, and what drives me onward.
 
"I still have to live and pay my bills like everyone else, but the richness that I have experienced from the human aspect of knifemaking is the greatest gift this craft has given me, and what drives me onward."-Ed Caffrey

it is good to read a statement like this....thanks for your insight ed.....ryan
 
Keith Montgomery said:
As a collector, I don't think that it is bad to have a lot of new makers entering the field. It gives me more to choose from. It also won't affect the top makers, because they have more orders than they will be able to fill in five years. The makers it affects the most are those that are also trying to get a foothold.

Competition is good. It keeps makers on their toes. If an established maker sees his orders declining, because better makers have come along, that is the law of the jungle. It is up to him to show that he is still the alpha maker. Those that refuse to sit on their laurels will not have to worry about up an comers.

It does mean that established makers are going to have to become good at the business part of knifemaking, if they are not already.
Click to expand...

Keith just about summed it up but I will add one thing I personally as a maker
love to see that the collector has become more educated and thats a good thing. 26 years ago when I got into knife making most collectors didn't even know what questions to ask .Now the knife maker will advertise about his knives details that he knows the customer demands ! Its a good thing .
 
Ed Caffrey said:
When I got interested/started, it was in the time that I refer to as "The Dark Years". I was a poor Airman First Class in the Air Force, still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my daughter. After learning of the ABS and some of the top makers therein, and being in a situation where I didn't know anything, I decided to call a couple of the better known makers and ask some questions. One of the individuals told me "I don't talk to NEW knifemakers." I was very hopeful when the second one was willing to speak to me. However, during the short conversation, when I asked a question, I was told..."You'll have to come to my shop for that information." (long pause), "and I charge $400 a day for you to come to my shop." That was pretty much the end of the conversation. My question? "What type of solder do you recommend for guards?"
I was so frustrated and angry that I thought to myself, "If I ever become a knifemaker, I will never charge anyone for help."
As I became a better maker, many individuals came to my shop, wanting to learn. At first I let anyone who showed a glimmer of interest in the door. Since I had been treated so rudely, I was determined not to do the same to others. However, I quickly learned that very few actually had the drive and desire to do what it takes. Most of the time I would hear comments such as "When are we going to finish this knife!?" "This takes too long!" "This work is too hot and dirty!"
When it finally sunk in that most of these individuals were just wasting my time, and keeping me from making my own knives, I decided that the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff, was to start charging for my teaching. That cut way down on the "riff-raff", but to this day, only about 1 in 10 of every person who comes to me for classes ever does anything with it.

In the early 90s, we started the Montana Knifemaker's Association with the thought in mind of sharing information, and I like to think that since it was one of the first regionalized organizations with that goal, we helped start the trend of sharing. Afterwards, many other regions started their own organizations, and since, the level of sharing information has blossomed. I'm not tooting the MKA's horn here, but the fact that most of the Montana (and later the whole Northwest area) fed off of each other, is why we, as a group, went so far, so fast.

OK, I got a little off track. To the questions that Kevin asked....

1. I don't believe that by training new makers, we will realize our own demise. As I told one individual who was surprised with the level of sharing I provided during a class..."We could live next door to each other, and a client could send both of us the same sketch of a bowie to produce. We could each make it, and we each would have a different knife."
As Erik first mentioned, few will have the drive and determination to take it beyond a knife or two. Those who do, will certainly earn it.

2. IF the individuals who are coming up look at knifemaking as an art form,(and not ONLY from the monetary aspect) and have the passion, it will be a positive for all of us. That will encourage/force all the established makers to push themselves to a higher level, and to continue to offer better and better knives.
If the individuals being taught only see the dollar signs, it will be a negative. Worrying about the number of hours you have in a piece, verses how much you can get for it, often leads a new maker to sloppy work that looks "hurried". Those who have the "passion" for knifemaking will understand this, and those who don't have the passion will likely never.

3. There are certain more new makers in this day and age than ever before. It really isn't a major issue for me. As I mentioned earlier, only about 1 out of every 10 individuals who come to me for formal training, ever do anything with it. Those who do, have earned it through their hard work and determination. Beyond the business aspect of knifemaking, there are other rewards besides the money. Two that come to mind for me are Jon Christensen and Dana Hackney. I trained both of these individuals. Jon has achieved both his JS and MS, winning the Hastings and B.R. Hughes awards along the way. During all of that, Jon and I have become the best of friends, sharing not only knifemaking skills and ideas, but enjoying each others company.......something that goes way beyond the money.
Dana recently won Best New Maker at Blade West, and his future in Knifemaking looks bright. He has also become a dear friend.
Recently, when my Dad passed away, both Jon and Dana (along with a number of other makers/friends), where there for support when I needed it the most. That meant more to me than selling all the knives I could ever make.
Looking at it from the "business" aspect, either of these individuals could me considered my competition. But to me they are dear friends, and that friendship carries meaning far beyond the dollars and cents aspect of what we do. Of course the money is important, without it knifemaking would be just a hobby, but unlike some, who are all "hardnosed" business to the end, it is not the MOST important thing for me. I still have to live and pay my bills like everyone else, but the richness that I have experienced from the human aspect of knifemaking is the greatest gift this craft has given me, and what drives me onward.
Click to expand...

Great post Ed. Thank you.
 
jdm61 said:
Although some decry the dearth of new collectors, all of these knives that are being made have to be going somewhere.

If you follow the dealer sites you see where many are going and where many stay. :eek:

There seem to be a lot of newer makers out there who appear to be selling enough knives to keep them interested in their hobby.

It could be augured that if you are selling knives then it's not a hobby but a business.;)

As in any other field of endeavor, there is a fair degree of attrition, but I would guess that the custom knife biz is bigger than ever and continuing to grow. The serious collector market may be somewhat stagnant or not, but what percentage of the entire market for custom knives is that?

I would say the serious collector market (in dollars spent) is substantial as there are collectors that consistently spend $50K to $100K or more per year on custom knives. It was stated in Blade Magazine several years ago that there were only aprox. 700 collectors world-wide that would spend over $2500 for a knife. That's alarming IMO if even close to true.

The custom knife business has an advantage that most other "custom made" businesses do not. Price of admission to the club......you can buy a rather nice custom hunter for about the same price as a really nice pair of men's dress shoes or a decent sport coat.

I agree. Many collectibles require much higher price of admission.
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Keith Montgomery said:
As a collector, I don't think that it is bad to have a lot of new makers entering the field. It gives me more to choose from. It also won't affect the top makers, because they have more orders than they will be able to fill in five years. The makers it affects the most are those that are also trying to get a foothold.

Makers order list (or waiting list) are interesting on their own IMO. It would be interesting to know how many makers out of ALL calling themselves maker actually have waiting list. :confused: Then to, I wonder how many makers have waiting list out of their own choosing? For example, some makers fill orders as a last resort when they are not building for shows or making what they like to make etc. Has It become fashionable for makers to have waiting list? ;) :)

Competition is good. It keeps makers on their toes. If an established maker sees his orders declining, because better makers have come along, that is the law of the jungle. It is up to him to show that he is still the alpha maker. Those that refuse to sit on their laurels will not have to worry about up an comers.
Perhaps competition is good as long as all parties are on level ground? Wallmart vs. Mom&Pop? Hobby maker (little expense/overhead) vs. established/full time maker?

Just asking some questions for discussion here :confused:

It does mean that established makers are going to have to become good at the business part of knifemaking, if they are not already.
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Kevin Jones said:
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Good points. My assertions were based on what little I have seen on here and at shows other than the big ones like Blade, New York, Chicago, SICAC, etc where the cost of a table requires that a maker not only be serious, but have high dollar.....or euro, as the case may be......product. I met or talked to a number of makers who sell enough to support their equipment habit and I am sure that there are a few retards like me who bought their equipment long before ever selling their first knife.:D The recent article in Blade about going full time stated that 90% of knifemakers are part timers and of the remaining 10%, probably less than a third of them derive all of their household income from knifemaking. While that remaining 90% include some VERY serious players like Greg Neely (before he retired) and a slew of others, it also has to include a large proportion of hobbyists. There is a very nice lady from the UK named Grace Horne who has, over a period of years, apparently made a handful of amazing looking folders in her spare time and yet she has never sold a single one.
Applying sound business principles to your hobby will make life easier, but, in my case, having a positive cash flow is not going to determine whether or not I continue the hobby in the short term. I'm having too much fun:D I meet people who are in the same boat as me at local shows. There may only be 700 collectors out there who will buy a $2500 knife, but what percentage of makers can charge $2500 for a knife? Point being that there is room for all of us. Not everyone can make a living selling to the high dollar collector market. I'm not saying that a lot of makers wouldn't want to, but I am realistic in my aspirations and I suspect that other makers are too:D I think Mr. Caffrey's pouint is well taken. Mostof the folks he trains never get inot the business. A percentage of the rest will never really compete against him and if I was ever in his postion and one of my students ended up being better or more populr than me, then I would just accept the fact that they were doing something that i was either unable or unwilling to do and drive on. That possibility would not discourage me from helping others out like folks have helped me. To me, that is kind of one of the rules of the custom knife making game.
 
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