Efficient Mid-sized knives...The Satin Jack?

L

Lukers

Joined
Jul 17, 1999
Messages
571
Hi All,
I have a few questions and comments concerning Mid-sized fixed blades for everyday use around the house and in the woods. I enjoy knives a great deal but I am trying to slim down the number of tools I have around. Currently I own a Busse Battle Mistress, Satin Jack(just came yesterday), Busse Basic 3, Boye Basic 2, Spyderco Police, CRKT M-16 and various blades that I have hand forged. I want to reduce the number of knives I have...I would appreciate some input from you guys.
As I said, I got the Busse Satin Jack CG yesterday. I had been wanting one for sometime as they seemed to have the right amount of everything I could want in a knife. It would be great for deer next year, and in the woods, and around the house for cutting cardboard and brush...or so I thought. I have used it for some chopping in the back yard on some hard wood and then on some cardboard. It can hardly chop with any efficiency, it doesn't slice well due to the .265 blade thickness(thickness with the coating). The cutting edge on in the mid-blade area is .068 inch at the secondary bevel. This about the same as the BM, but the SJ has a width of 1.275 at it's widest spot. Having such a thick edge while not having the width of blade, make cutting with the SJ, like cutting with a splitting axe. I find that more delicate cutting across the grain on wood is much easier with the BM for this reason. The BM is much easier to use for whittling because of it's thinner edge geometry.
Having said that...I wonder if there is a place for a mid sized(5-7inch blade) fixed blade for practical use. Whittling can be done easily with a small knife such as the M-16, the Boye Basic 2 or maybe a SAK Adventurer. What about a Knife with a saw such as the SAK Rucksack or Trailmaster? It seems to me after using the Satin Jack for chopping, I could easily saw through wood faster with an SAK than I could chop it with the SJ. I can certainly understand a knife like the Busse Basic 7 as the blade has edge geometry similar to the BM. I can also understand a thinner(thinner in the thickness of metal it was ground from) mid-sized blade like the one made by Neil Blackwood or the Air Assualt by Newt Livesay. My case and point...I bought a Satin Jack with the intent of using it a lot because so many people thought highly of it for woods use. But for chopping, I'd rather use my BM which can out chop and out whittle the SJ. For whittling, a Mora knife or a SAK Trailmaster will excell far above the cutting performance of the Satin Jack. The Mora could even be used with a mallet to fell trees and split wood. So...what would you do? Would you keep the SJ because it is...afterall I said...a very handsome knife. I am really want to limit the number of tools I have...and for what the Satin Jack cost me I could have a 2 Air Assualts or maybe a Blackwood which wereboth designed for general utility(hunting, fishing, woods chores etc). Should I keep it or sell it? What should take its place?
Any comments and suggestions would be much appreciated,
Luke Freeouf
Cyclebiker@hotmail.com
 
I would let the SJ go.

I am a big fan of large blade and small sak like stuff combo. I understand your need to consolidate. I am down to saks multi-tools and a few spydies then my large stuff.

the BM and a sak and a few other folders will prove to be the ideal carry. at least for me.


a while back I posted a poll about one knife carry and the most pop was the 5-6 fixed blade. I myself voted for the lg chopper. in the woods give me a hatchet, lg chopper and a sak and I am very happy!

I usually pick the middle ground but in a knife the middle doesn't do either well.
 
Lukers, I currently use a SJ LE, and it has worked fine for me. I understand your problems though. The knife performed very well with the kindling I amde with it, but if you are not happy with it, get what you are comfortable with. I ahve also been looking for a new mid-size outdoor knife, and I have asked members of this forums are their ideas. This is a good place to ask for help.

If you want something else, get it. Do not be unhappy with a tool that doesnt perform for you. Several people on this forum use an SJ for their midsize knife. But it works for them and not for you. Well alot of things work for certain people and not for others. Get something that you will be happy with, I am sure that you will have no problem getting rid of the Busse. If you are wanting to streamline, get a chopper.
 
I agree that if one carries multiple knives, the midsized blade (4-6 inches) is not all that useful. A SAK rucksack or Mora and a large blade or tomahawk will do everything one might require when out in the woods. If one was to only carry one knife, the mid sized blade provides a sort of compromise, though I think I'd still just take the rucksack...it's hard to beat that little saw for most jobs...
 
Bomb proof knives, who needs them?

You have just hit the mark. Thick stock on smaller blades make them less useful. I've just finished the kitchen tests on the CR Shaddow III, the smallest of the fixed CR fixed line. Frankly it struggles as it will split an apple rather than slice through it. But then thats part of the course for a survival tough blade. My CR Project is a whole size bigger but has less of a problem because there is more blade to take the grind.

Military and survival blades have to be built to last through thick or thin (excuse the pun). Invariably this equates to the use of a thick stock. To take the punishment there has to be a certain thickness of steel, irrespective of the length of the blade. This puts proportions out and cutting suffers badly. Not sharpness but keenness and depth of cut. Thick stock on a small knife and you have a wedgey :D

I want a Busse BM because the overall proportions work making an efficient tool. However, to me the rest of the range sucks, well they don't work for me. I love my CR Project, another size down, because the knife as a whole works: right weight, desent cutting depth good steel, nice package. I'm having certain reservations on the CR Shaddow III, not because its a bad knife but because I'm no pilot and don't have to save on the size of knife for my survival knife needs. If I want a smaller knife my needs go towards a thinner stock for starts, but then I'm leaving the survival knife scenario.

I do think the trend has gone too far towards thick stock, because we have been conditioned to believe any good knife can't break or bend in use, and this is not even normal use but up to abuse levels. We even complain if we need to sharpen them occasionally!

How do you keep your knife armoury under control? Ensure that the designated tasks don't overlap and each blade is efficient in your hands. One multi function: SAK/Leatherman; one cutting folder; one small cutting fixed blade; one survival fixed blade; a wopper chopper either machete or an axe; and a kitchen set. When I say "cutting", I mean one that cuts well and doesn't have to dig a set of trench foundations.

The knives I carry are the ones that fit me and do efficiently what I want them to do. I have a few knives that don't work for me and so never see the light of day. Lastly, there are decent knives in most price ranges. Even if you upgrade later a well balanced, good to task knife will keep being used even if its relogated to the truck tool box; a bad knife wont.

You wouldn't do a marathon in mountain boots just because your trainers might break. So why do we all do it with our knives then?
 
I still find a place in my heart for the 5 inch-ish blade. Once I'm in camp, I tend to shed the larger blade, and the smaller 'camp knife' gets pressed into use for camp chores such as food prep, whittling, opening things, or whatever else comes up. They're light enough to stay on the belt and not really be noticed until they're needed.

My personal choice is the Busse Basic 5 which seems just the right size, although I've also got a TOPS Overlander that I think would work well.

As for keeping the Satin Jack, I can't give a fair opinion because I'd just try to convince you to swap it with me for an Air Assault and some other goodies. It may not be the best for the woods, but I still want to try one out!

-
 
i don't have loads of experience with a lot of knives, because i can only afford to buy what i know will work for me. thusly, i tend to do lots of research beforehand. a knife which i think will fill your needs perfectly is the campanion. short enough to "carry" well, but still able to do it all; within reason. it's ground from 1/4 inch stock, but the flat grind makes for a REALLY great slicer, while stll having plenty of heft for "big knife" chores. i've found that by gripping further back on the handle, and using a lanyard, it will chop like a much bigger knife. at the same time, it will whittle fine fuzz sticks all day. and it's less than 75 dollars.

that's the "one knife" i'd carry, with a couple of folders, for a light load. as others have said, if you plan on carrying multiple knives anyway, go with blades that fill a niche better. for multiple carry, i plan on going with ontario's new RTAK (replacing my khukuri) and a kabar "shorty" for small knife chores. since you've already got your "chopper" covered, maybe you should look at something like jeff randall's laser strike. that would be a fine around-camp blade. i'm going to get one myself, someday.

sorry for the lower case; get my hand out of the "shop" next week.
 
Hi,

LArge knives are not really accepted by the sheeple in Holland anymore so during scouting no "Biggies" are allowed.

I have settled for 3 sharp things that I think will cover 100% of my needs (Holland has no wilderness, tropical forests etc. ;) ) :

1. SAK Hunter with locking blade
2. 3"-5" fixed blade (choice of: - Cold Steel Master Hunter
(wickedly sharp)
- Mini Bushman (sharp,cheap)
- Cold Steel SRK (strong, should
reprofile the bevel to make it
better cutter)
- Busse Basic 5 (handle feels to
small for me though)
- Spyderco Moran (wickedly sharp,
but to light for general use)
- My custom made Ray Mears knock-
off "Survival" knife CPM440V,
Desert Ironwood grips, Scandina-
vian model.
3. A Gränsfors Bruks axe - I prefer the "Jägerbeil" or
Hunters axe with it's thinner
edge, it can almost shave!
But the small forest axe is also
fine.
When I don't think I need an axe
but still need to do some
"heavy" cutting I'll take an
Martindale Jungle knife #4
(humpback whale model.

Still I have several folders like a Spyderco Military that I often carry in a neck sheath (daily carry) but when "out" during scouting I find myself using the SAK most times, then my Ray Mears 'knock-off' and the Gränsfors axe for heavier work more often than any other knives I own.
For me it also boils down to I know these knives by heart they become one with me while using them and that's for me very important it helps also avoiding nasty custs, I just know how they handle.

Best Scouting wsiehs from Holland,

Bagheera
 
Thank you guys,
I really appreciate what everyone said. I think I will sell the SJ as is just isn't useful to me. I am definitely with Bagherra, number three and Chris on the SAK thing. I sold mine to my brother...and now I want it back! There are so many things that an SAK can do. I wish they used a better steel in the saw and blade, but I can always resharpen. I have also found the Spydie Military do be an excellent knife. I have owned two of them and sold them both...one for$60 and the other for $70. I admit I was stupid to sell them as I had no problem splitting the brisket of 2 deer with it and it still shaving.
It seems that everyone basically is saying " Have a big knife or an axe and a small folder, and anything is else is up to you". You're right GREENJACKET, who needs them? I guess for a situation where weight is a factor, but I think I bought the Satin Jack because I wanted it...not because I needed it. I now I regret buying it. It is only 3 days old so I am pretty sure that I can retrieve most of my money out of it.
VShrake, I thought the Newt Livesay made the RTAK. Did Jeff Randall switch makers or something? This makes me wonder. Having talked to Newt so many times on the phone, I wonder how many of the things we hear about INFI is really hype. Yeah I know...its sacraligious to even hint at, but I didn't notice a great deal of edge holding between a knife I forged from coil spring(5/32inch thick) and the Basic 3...nor a great deal more edge holding between a 1095 knife I made to the general appearance of a SH(out of 3/16) and a Basic 9. The edge holding difference was so small that I wondered why I had originally bought the Busses. The 3/16 1095 SH blade I made out cut the basic 9 because of it's thinner edge geometry and similar size. I currently own a Battle Mistress which I have had or over a year and a half. Do you all know if Busse sharpens the knives specially when he does the torture tests? I sharpen with a ceramic and leather to get a shaving edge. If I cut down a hard wood tree with a 5'' diameter, half way through, the shaving edge is gone. I know that having a shaving edge isn't all that important, but I wonder how the performance level I have experienced can be so much less than what is advertised. Don't get me wrong though...I love Busse knives because they are better than most and because of their outstanding warranty policy.
I think GreenJacket says it all.... "Military and survival blades have to be built to last through thick or thin (excuse the pun). Invariably this equates to the use of a thick stock. To take the punishment there has to be a certain thickness of steel, irrespective of the length of the blade. This puts proportions out and cutting suffers badly. Not sharpness but keenness and depth of cut. Thick stock on a small knife and you have a wedgey."
It's all about the edge geometry of the knife.
Thank you all for your very wise and logical answers to my dilema.
Sincerely
Luke Freeouf
P.S. Let's keep this thread going! It's interesting to hear about what everyone else uses!
 
Caveat: I'm a dedicated Busse-holic, so keep my bias in mind. :)

I just got my combat grade SJ. I will be using it this weekend to duplicate some testing I did last weekend on green maple branches with several Busses, a BK&T C/U 7, a Fallkniven A1, a Spyderco Moran FB1, and a Gerber Yari. I'll incorporate my findings with the SJ into a report I hope to post to the Reviews forum next week.

The two surprises out of my testing with the knives listed above were:
  1. the high overall performance of the BK&T Combat/Utility 7 for a $50 knife. This is very much a blade in the mid-size blade range, albeit with thinner stock, that this thread deems a bit of a poor compromise. It may be that for my task (chopping & cutting green, mostly thin branches) its geometry is particularly well suited.
  2. the agility and cutting/slicing power of the Busse Battle Mistress. For a big honkin' blade it worked surprisingly well for me while slicing through branches and whittling points onto branch ends. In my experience, it dances real well & agilely. It also outchops the other blades by merit of being longer & heavier than the others.
 
lukers, jeff randall just closed a deal with ontario to do a version of the RTAK. 1095, but without the differential heat treat. it still has micarta grips, but with a slightly diferent shape than the livesay version. i've always loved the looks of the RTAK, but couldn't afford the "real deal". but the ontario RTAK is only 89 bucks, and comes with an ambi cordura sheath WITH a goodies pouch sewn on. check out jeff's forum for pics and stuff. won't be out for about 3 months, so i'm saving my pennies now. should be a great knife, and my first with micarta scales. looking forward to it, for sure.
 
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