Elmax vs. *insert_comparable_for_situation*

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KennyB

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So I was sharpening this custom fixed blade I have. It's a scandi-ground drop point, .098" thick and Elmax HT'd to 62 hrc. The main bevel grind is about 25 degrees inclusive.

Given these dimensions what kind of steel is it comparable? I ask because, versus 1095 I really don't see a HUGE amount of difference in edge retention. I'm wondering if this is because the blade is relatively thin and the grind also an acute angle. It definitely holds its eddge longer than 1095 or other mild steels but I expected it to be like, exponentioally better at edge holding.

I'm figuring since it's ground so acute that's the trade off? Better cutting performance than edge retention? I will say it's amazingly tough... I've accidentaly ran into a few staples during an odd-job I'd rather not detail, but long story short I put a LOT of force on a steel staple thinking it was just a wood splinter, and it barely dented the edge. From my experience using more mild steels if I had done the same with them, it would have been a much bigger deformation.
 
Just going to throw this out there but 1095 is not a "mild steel" its a hypereutectoid high carbon steel. ( Sorry to nit pick)
With Elmax being a Stainless steel you may want to compare to other SS steels such as cpm-s30v,m390 or cts-204p.
The ability to hold a edge goes so far past just the choice of steel as the heat treat the thickness behind the edge etc etc all play into this.
I have no issues with steel junkies but I think people expect these huge dramatic differences and for most real world use they are more marketing that not.
Of course this is just my opinion
 
mc556 said:
Just going to throw this out there but 1095 is not a "mild steel" its a hypereutectoid high carbon steel. ( Sorry to nit pick)
With Elmax being a Stainless steel you may want to compare to other SS steels such as cpm-s30v,m390 or cts-204p.
The ability to hold a edge goes so far past just the choice of steel as the heat treat the thickness behind the edge etc etc all play into this.
I have no issues with steel junkies but I think people expect these huge dramatic differences and for most real world use they are more marketing that not.
Of course this is just my opinion
Click to expand...

Well when I say "mild steel", I don't mean from a metallurgy context or that of a machinist... What I mean is that elmax is generally referred to as a "super steel". I guess the more appropriate term would be "regular steel".

Anyway, your opinion is basically the conclussion that I was wondering about. It doesn't seem like it makes a huge discernable difference.
 
KennyB said:
... Elmax HT'd to 62 hrc. The main bevel grind is about 25 degrees inclusive.

Given these dimensions what kind of steel is it comparable? I ask because, versus 1095 I really don't see a HUGE amount of difference in edge retention...
Click to expand...

"Edge-retention" doing WHAT? Whittling wood? Slicing paper? Meat & cheese? These are not highly abrasive tasks. The high "edge-retention" provided by high-carbide steels like Elmax is abrasion resistance, wear resistance. The carbides act as protective ceramic plates against the abrasive qualities of particular materials. The PM process used to produce Elmax allows for a higher volume of these plates while retaining sufficient toughness to prevent chipping under normal circumstances and sufficient hardness to prevent deformation.
When you mention cutting into a metal staple resulting in minimal "deformation", that is hardness coming into play, not wear-resistance, and I should note that 62 Rc is quite good for an Elmax blade, well done by that maker :thumbup::thumbup:. But a 1095 blade at similar hardness should perform just as well if HT'd properly.
If you noted a lack of chipping, THAT is toughness coming into play, not wear resistance.
If you noted that the knife continues to cut through abrasive material long after another knife has gone dull, THAT is wear resistance, the "edge retention" that Elmax is touted for.
If you are not doing much in the way of abrasive cutting (and many people are not), i.e. if you are not looking for it, then you are unlikely to see a difference.
Comparing 1095 to Elmax in non-abrasive cutting, corrosion resistance is the most obvious difference but you wouldn't notice it if you never exposed both blades to a corrosive environment.

By the way, thinner geometry IMPROVES edge-retention in abrasive cutting, no trade-off there unless you manage to compromise the integrity of the steel, and while 12.5 dps is low for an edge-bevel it is really high (thick) for a primary grind. If the apex begins to crumble, a quick swipe on a ceramic rod at 15-dps will establish a microbevel that is razor sharp and able to keep cutting far longer.

In summary, if you don't see a "HUGE" difference in edge retention, it's probably because you aren't actually looking for it, or you have a specific idea of what you should be seeing, or both.
 
There are too many variables to answer this question with any semblance of accuracy. So, what I will do is give you my experiences with the different steels I've owned.

My knives are generally used at my office, where the heaviest use would be cutting plastic straps off of cartons of paper. Thus, I really have no way of measuring wear resistance or toughness other than conjecture. Edge retention, however, I can speak of based on the knives I've owned. Here I've listed the different steels I've owned from best retention to worst, and what knife(s) used them. I will also include positive and negative traits that I've experienced. As usual, YMMV.

1) CPM-M4--Spyderco Gayle Bradley: Keeps a very sharp edge for a long time. I purchased the knife 8/2013 and just now had to resharpen it. However, I found it stains quite easily without a patina. This is of course to be expected being a tool steel and all. Difficult to sharpen (takes time).
2) ZDP-189--Spyderco Dragonfly 2: The little knife that could. Edge retention that rivals CPM-M4, gets so sharp it scares the hell out of me. Took a year of use before needing to be sharpened. I really having nothing negative to say about this steel.
3) CTS-XHP--Spyderco Manix 2: Phenomenal steel, stayed razor sharp for about two months, and has kept a very good "working" edge since. Haven't had to sharpen it yet.
4) Elmax--ZT0561, 0801, 0770CF--Great all around steel with good edge retention. My knives in this steel are too new to make any kind of edge longevity determination. So far, so good.
5) D2--Brous Bionic, LionSteel Opera: Good all around steel, doesn't really stand out in any one category. Relatively easy to bring back to a razor sharp edge.
6) CPM-S35VN--Three Sisters Forge Beast: Only had this knife a month, but has kept a very sharp edge. Placing this a notch below D2 strictly for the fact that I haven't had enough time to evaluate it thoroughly.
7) 154CM/ATS-34: Nothing special, have had a lot of knives with it, but it was adequate for my needs.
8) AUS-8A--Cold Steel Recon 1: For an "inexpensive" steel, it performed as I expected (adequate) and nothing more.
9) CPM-S30V--Spyderco PM2 Nilakka, Benchmade 162, ZT0350TS, Strider SnG: I had high hopes for this steel, being that it is the upgrade and/or standard of choice for many knives, especially higher end production knives. The biggest issue I with it is inconsistency. It rolled with the BM 162, chipped with the PM2 and ZT0350, and with the Strider and Nilakka dulled very quickly. For me, its been like the proverbial box of chocolates. I avoid it at all costs now.
 
KennyB said:
Well when I say "mild steel", I don't mean from a metallurgy context or that of a machinist... What I mean is that elmax is generally referred to as a "super steel". I guess the more appropriate term would be "regular steel".

Anyway, your opinion is basically the conclusion that I was wondering about. It doesn't seem like it makes a huge discernable difference.
Click to expand...


Glad you didn't take offense I pretty much knew what you were asking/saying..
There are so many choices and they are done by so many different people it really is a what is the best steel from this maker for the type of use I intend.


When someone get's more involved in the more premium knife market the marketing can't tell the whole story. ZDP is awesome but I wouldn't want to baton wood with it.

As a hobby maker who started doing in house HT last year and it's been a eye opener. A point or two in RC hardness can really change things in a good or bad way. From my point of view I love CPM-154cm but as far as production knives go there are a dozen other steels that are so close...
My recommendation is to buy them all :)

Just to clarify CPM-154cm not 154cm since it was mentioned by the above poster.
 
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