Elmax vs m390

elmax has many component advantages of m390, but it's just coming on the scene so scanty performance reports are available.it may be 7 months or longer before we have enough info from the field to form an opinion.--dennis
 
DennisStrickland said:
elmax has many component advantages of m390, but it's just coming on the scene so scanty performance reports are available.it may be 7 months or longer before we have enough info from the field to form an opinion.--dennis
Click to expand...

How would you compare the two based on the components.
Elmax a bit tougher a bit finer grained?
 
neo as far as i know ankerson has done the most recent testing to give us results as he just showed. not a lot of difference between the 2 alloys , with a slight advantage to m390. however we really need more road trips with these very recent steels to get a definitive understanding. suffice to say either elmax or 390 should give exemplary performance with decent heattreats.--dennis
 
From what I’ve seen in my use is that they are very similar steels. My own personal experience, leads me to prefer Elmax.
 
Ankerson said:
I have done some testing with both steels, what do you want to know?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=791816&highlight=ankerson

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792687&highlight=ankerson

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793185&highlight=ankerson
Click to expand...

Ankerson said:
ELMAX is an excellent steel that takes a very sharp fine edge and very easy to sharpen and maintain.
Click to expand...

Nice to hear it's easy to sharpen

Ankerson said:
From my testing M390 will hold an edge longer and it's a more agressive cutter because it has more carbides in it.

ELMAX is in the ZDP range and M390 is in the S90V range.
Click to expand...

Thank you :thumbup:
 
DennisStrickland said:
neo as far as i know ankerson has done the most recent testing to give us results as he just showed. not a lot of difference between the 2 alloys , with a slight advantage to m390. however we really need more road trips with these very recent steels to get a definitive understanding. suffice to say either elmax or 390 should give exemplary performance with decent heattreats.--dennis
Click to expand...

Both ELMAX and M390 were developed for the Plastics industry were they needed to be be very corrosive resistant due to the highly corrosive environment and chemicals. Both steels are 3rd Generation PM technology and very fine grained, also very clean (Pure).

M390 is a High Carbide steel and is pretty complicated in it's forming of the carbides and the HT and tempering process so a one needs a good HT that really knows what they are doing.

ELMAX is also a High Carbide steel, slightly less than M390 and less complicated to HT and Temper.

Both ELMAX and M390 will take a frightening sharp edge and hold it for a very long time with the edge going to M390 for longer edge retention. Both steels are very strong when they are Ht correctly.

Hardness should be around 60 HRC for most production blades we will see for both steels.

In customs with a good HT both can be hardened to 62 HRC by a good HT who has a 4 bar or better furnace and understands these steels and the tempering process. M390 is very complicated to HT and temper, the tempering process can get very involved and difficult.
 
Last edited:
M390 can be difficult to temper if you try for the secondary hardness with a temper at about 900F. The range is very narrow and the deep freeze moves the temperature, so a lot experimentation is required.

However, with lower temperature tempers the steel is straightforward to HT. On the Bohler-Uddeholm USA web site, under applications, Knives, there is an M390 brochure with HT instructions.

2010-2160, soak is shorter as the temperature rises, 4 bar quench, deep freeze and 390-570F tempers. Heat slowly to temper temperature and temper for 2 hours twice.

The furnace should not be overloaded as the HT temperature and soak time must be close to the specs. Furnaces that have large internal temperature ranges, over 50F, can be a problem. A fast quench is essential.

There are a number of commercial HT companies who can do M390. Peters in PA and Stack in Portland, OR are two examples, both do M390 knives.

Hope this helps.
 
jim & preminumsteel--does this m390 heattreat imply that this alloy will see limited use by large manufactures due to costs of tempering? i like the edge holding but wonder if introduced as a catalog entity : will it be very expensive. the b.m.710-1 at around 170$ is about the max i would spend for a factory model.--dennis
 
Hmm, I take it that it would be complicated to attempt to have an existing M390 blade re-heat treated? I've heard about potential warping of the blades depending on how thick it is at certain points.
 
Both steels would lend themselves to plate quenching which would usually eliminate warping.
 
Do we know whether BM is doing the HT on their M390 blades in-house? (Do they do all/some/none of their HT in-house?)

Ankerson said:
Both ELMAX and M390 were developed for the Plastics industry were they needed to be be very corrosive resistant due to the highly corrosive environment and chemicals. Both steels are 3rd Generation PM technology and very fine grained, also very clean (Pure).

M390 is a High Carbide steel and is pretty complicated in it's forming of the carbides and the HT and tempering process so a one needs a good HT that really knows what they are doing.

ELMAX is also a High Carbide steel, slightly less than M390 and less complicated to HT and Temper.

Both ELMAX and M390 will take a frightening sharp edge and hold it for a very long time with the edge going to M390 for longer edge retention. Both steels are very strong when they are Ht correctly.

Hardness should be around 60 HRC for most production blades we will see for both steels.

In customs with a good HT both can be hardened to 62 HRC by a good HT who has a 4 bar or better furnace and understands these steels and the tempering process. M390 is very complicated to HT and temper, the tempering process can get very involved and difficult.
Click to expand...


Premiumsteel said:
M390 can be difficult to temper if you try for the secondary hardness with a temper at about 900F. The range is very narrow and the deep freeze moves the temperature, so a lot experimentation is required.

However, with lower temperature tempers the steel is straightforward to HT. On the Bohler-Uddeholm USA web site, under applications, Knives, there is an M390 brochure with HT instructions.

2010-2160, soak is shorter as the temperature rises, 4 bar quench, deep freeze and 390-570F tempers. Heat slowly to temper temperature and temper for 2 hours twice.

The furnace should not be overloaded as the HT temperature and soak time must be close to the specs. Furnaces that have large internal temperature ranges, over 50F, can be a problem. A fast quench is essential.

There are a number of commercial HT companies who can do M390. Peters in PA and Stack in Portland, OR are two examples, both do M390 knives.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
 
DennisStrickland said:
jim & preminumsteel--does this m390 heattreat imply that this alloy will see limited use by large manufactures due to costs of tempering? i like the edge holding but wonder if introduced as a catalog entity : will it be very expensive. the b.m.710-1 at around 170$ is about the max i would spend for a factory model.--dennis
Click to expand...

I don't know, we will have to wait and see.

M390 is in the same price range as S90V for the steel.
 
Last edited:
This is a reply to Dennis Strickland's question about the tempering of M390.

With low temperature tempering, from 390F to 570F, the heat treat cost should be about the same as other powder stainless steels in a commercial operation.

The quench should be done with a 4 bar quench in a vacuum furnace and M390 needs a deep freeze. The tempers are straghtforward.

If a custom maker has a furnace that will go to 2100F and has deep freeze capability then forced air quenches or plate quenches work and produce great blades.

M390 is more expensive to buy compared with the more common powder stainlesses and the manufacturing process (grinding) can be more difficult due to its hardenss and wear ressistance.

However, with 20% chrome, 4% vanadium, 1% moly and .6% tungsten M390 has a high alloy content that gives the great performance.

M390 makes a great top of the line knife, as the tests show, with some added cost, but still possible on a commercial basis. And it is readliy available!
 
Premiumsteel said:
This is a reply to Dennis Strickland's question about the tempering of M390.

With low temperature tempering, from 390F to 570F, the heat treat cost should be about the same as other powder stainless steels in a commercial operation.

The quench should be done with a 4 bar quench in a vacuum furnace and M390 needs a deep freeze. The tempers are straghtforward.

If a custom maker has a furnace that will go to 2100F and has deep freeze capability then forced air quenches or plate quenches work and produce great blades.

M390 is more expensive to buy compared with the more common powder stainlesses and the manufacturing process (grinding) can be more difficult due to its hardenss and wear ressistance.

However, with 20% chrome, 4% vanadium, 1% moly and .6% tungsten M390 has a high alloy content that gives the great performance.

M390 makes a great top of the line knife, as the tests show, with some added cost, but still possible on a commercial basis. And it is readliy available!
Click to expand...

As long as the heat treater doesn't cripple it with a sub standard HT and tempering process and freezes it they can get it to 61-62 HRC were it really needs to be. If they can do that it's really an amazing steel that will offer exceptional performance well beyond what some would believe. M390 can be a very tough and strong steel that can hold an edge for a very long time at proper hardness.

As was outlined in your post it's not cheap to do that, getting high performance with premium steels never is.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top