ELMAX: What's better?

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KennyB

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I've been trying to read up for comparisons of ELMAX to other steels already commonly used in custom knives, specificallly tool steels, and ones that might be taken past 62-64 HRC? In conversation in particular that was interesting was one discussing CPM-M4 versus ELMAX. What other "common" tool steels perform at the same levels or better as ELMAX when treated in the high Rcs?
 
ZDP-189 is commonly used and while the production companies only harden it to around 62-65* custom makers will have no problem taking it to the full ~67HRC for you.

*note originally spyderco hardened it to 65 but after the every day users couldn't not chip their blades they dialed it down and current production knives are ~62.
 
It sounds like you're interested in wear resistance, rather than toughness. There are actually a lot of super wear resistant steels out now, both stainless and non-stainless.

M390 is a great all-around steel. It's stainless.

S90V is a super wear resistant stainless steel with good toughness -- about as tough as regular D2.

S110V is even more wear resistant and stainless, and about as tough as regular D2 and S90V.

K390 is close to S110V -- reasonably tough, [edit: not stainless -- thanks Trevitrace] and super wear resistant.

K294 and 10V are in the general range of S110V and K390 for wear resistance, but not stainless.

M4 is another great all-around steel. It's not stainless, but in the powder D2 range for toughness (better than regular D2) and excellent wear resistance.

10V, S110V, K294, K390 should have the best wear resistance -- roughly twice as high as S30V, which is a great knife steel-- with S90V right behind those, M4 right behind S90V. Then M390, also pretty close to M4.
 
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Can't speak for any of these super steels except for S110V. Talk about taking a long time to sharpen. It did get sharp with silicon carbide, but man, it started testing my patience. I haven't tested it or whatever, but after sharpening once, I haven't had to do a damn thing to it.
 
bodog said:
Can't speak for any of these super steels except for S110V. Talk about taking a long time to sharpen. It did get sharp with silicon carbide, but man, it started testing my patience. I haven't tested it or whatever, but after sharpening once, I haven't had to do a damn thing to it.
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Yes, the first sharpening -- and especially reprofiling -- can be a bear. But after that, with good technique and equipment, they sharpen up fairly easily, provided you don't let them get dull.
 
Cereal_killer said:
ZDP-189 is commonly used and while the production companies only harden it to around 62-65* custom makers will have no problem taking it to the full ~67HRC for you.

*note originally spyderco hardened it to 65 but after the every day users couldn't not chip their blades they dialed it down and current production knives are ~62.
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There are custom knives in ZDP189? Closest thing to customs I've ever seen in that are rocksteads, but those aren't really customs. As far as I know that's one of those steels the maker doesn't want to leave japan at and is pretty much relegated to production knives made there.
 
fzla226 said:
There are custom knives in ZDP189? Closest thing to customs I've ever seen in that are rocksteads, but those aren't really customs. As far as I know that's one of those steels the maker doesn't want to leave japan at and is pretty much relegated to production knives made there.
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Yuna knives makes some, he has a very specific style tho and won't be for everyone. I don't want to look threw the 300 pages but I ran across a few others in the "what's your EDC" thread.
 
K390 isn't stainless. Forms a beautiful patina.

Adam
IMAG0659_zps6b885d4d.jpg
 
KennyB said:
I've been trying to read up for comparisons of ELMAX to other steels already commonly used in custom knives, specificallly tool steels, and ones that might be taken past 62-64 HRC? In conversation in particular that was interesting was one discussing CPM-M4 versus ELMAX. What other "common" tool steels perform at the same levels or better as ELMAX when treated in the high Rcs?
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Unfortunately you run the risk of sacrificing many other key characteristics at very high HRC. Remember, everything in steel is a give and take between properties.

As for Elmax....I have yet to see HRC of 62-64 as the heat treat recommendations only go to HRC of 61. One always give and take a little with regards to HRC readings of coarse.

http://www.uddeholm.ee/english/files/elmax-eng.pdf

Bohler's recommondations:

Hardens and tempers to 57-59 HRC and 60-62 HRC with deep freeze. For maximum toughness, harden and temper to 57-59 HRC. For maximum wear resistance, harden and temper to 60-62 HRC.

http://www.bucorp.com/knives.htm

One key issue you have to keep in mind is geometry. If you get an Elmax blade or any other blade that is ground with two left feet it will not outperform a properly ground blade.

The other key issue is edge finish. The edge you put on your knife greatly affect the performance you are going to have.

One thing not mentioned is long term durability. CPM-M4 is hailed for its performance in cutting competition, however:

Ed Schempp said:
There is a tendency for CPM M4 to work harden in the very thin geometry of a knife blade. Blade sports competitors push the limits and some of these very thin blades work harden and fracture or crack after a year or two on competition, and are replaced. Personally I used 52100 clad with 15N 20 for several years, and the knife is still undamaged. For large blades I prefer high Carbon to stainless or high speed steel. I like to think that my blades will outlive me.
There are many special purpose steels that will give exceptional life with light cutting tasks. Many of these steels will be used and do well in folding knives, it depends on what you like in your knife...Tke Care...Ed
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http://www.spyderco.com/forums/show...23-test-and-your-thoughts&p=792225#post792225

One key issue with many of these steels is the heat treatment. It is difficult to get high HRC past the recommended HRCs given by Bohler unless you really start pushing the heat treatment cycle like Phil Wilson. Expect to pay for those expertise and grinding ability. I do know of a few makers that are fed up with these high alloy steels as the Knu-Foil they use can weld to the blade and the heat treat response of these high alloyed blades aiming for high HRC can be tricky. Unfortunately, IMO, you will be hard pressed to find these steels past an estimate of HRC 62 in production knives.

If all you want is wear resistance at a high HRC then buy a ceramic blade :)
 
Like Marthinus said, the higher the hardness the more brittle the steel becomes. You can keep it at reasonable levels and still get great performance. I have a S90V knife that's around 60 HRC which was re-profiled to a thinner edge and it does great.

Knife is a Scott Gossman UFK.

GossmanUFK006_zps65348277.jpg
 
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The Elmax on my ZT0561 is notably easy to sharpen, makes a distinct sound when sharpening, and has held an edge the best of any steels I've carried regularly including s35vn, 440c, s30v, 154cm, Sandvik, and others.

For my (typical) EDC purposes, and willingness to resharpen monthly, I can't imagine a better user steel.
 
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