Emerson apparel

[stabman]

I was just looking at some of the clothing offered, and it got me to thinking.
The marketing involved, with slogans such as "The Lethal Edge" makes it difficult for me to justify my Emerson knives as tools to any Canadian cop. Here's why.
A weapon is defined here as being a weapon due to intent of the person carryng it, or the intent of the designer. With the marketing, ALL Emerson knives can be shown to be designed as weapons, other than the SARK. They practically all have CQC on the blades(close quarters combat), or names like the "Combat Karambit", etc.
I find this to be unfortunate, as many of the desings would be awesome tools.
As it is, I think it could be a legal liability for me to carry my Emerson knives around, which is sad.
Why the marketing as weapons first and foremost I wonder?

 

[Greaves]

A knife is a tool until circumstance necessitates that it be deemed a defensive weapon. And as a defensive weapon, EKI's are excellent tools.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

that is how he got his start, and military and law enforcement have always been his primary demographic.

the 970st was designed as a demining tool.

the edged weapons classes he offers are also geared toward law enforcement.

the wave is designed for rapid deployment for use during deadly encounters.

nearly every aspect of his company is combat oriented. the knives, clothing, boots, training, challenge coins...

 

[stabman]

A knife is a tool until circumstance necessitates that it be deemed a defensive weapon. And as a defensive weapon, EKI's are excellent tools.

That would be MY definition, yes.
Unfortunately, under our laws, the intent of the designer counts too, which is where the marketing is harmful.

 

[stabman]

the wave is designed for rapid deployment for use during deadly encounters.

nearly every aspect of his company is combat oriented. the knives, clothing, boots, training, challenge coins...

But without the clothing and challenge coins, the knives could be arguably tools. The same things which make them good for defensive items make them tough tools for knifely duties.
The Wave is just for one-hand opening, which is fine for a tool as well. In sparring, I find the Wave sometimes fouls the draw. I'd prefer non-waved for a dedicated weapon.

 

[Thalestin]

I think tis more about how you present yourself and use your knife. I doubt most cops are going to look into the actual knife brand and find out what CQC means. However, certain knives like a karambit would be difficult to cross as a normal everyday tool.

I find my a100 is fine, and I dont have any fear of cops designating it as a weapon.

 

[stabman]

I think tis more about how you present yourself and use your knife. I doubt most cops are going to look into the actual knife brand and find out what CQC means.

For the most part, yes.
But if you end up in court, the jury WILL find out what CQC means, and it won't go in your favour.
Or if you find a zealous cop, it will make it harder to get your knife back, as they'll claim(and probably prove) that it's a weapon by design.

 

[sns3guppy]

I disagree. If I use a handgun defensively and end up in court, you can bet the jury will determine that the handgun was designed with lethal intent, too. After all, I woluldn't have been carrying it, if it was a paperweight.

If I'm carrying a knife which includes features for rapid deployment, which is positioned to be rapidly accessible, and I end up using it defensively, then a Jury can draw all the conclusions it wishes. If I can show that use of that knife, handgun, or other tool, weapon, or implement was necessary and justified, then the name on the weapon is of little consequence.

That EKI markets the knives in a big way to military and law enforcement can easily be shown to a jury as a responsible, professional market. Not exacty evidence of a reckless marketing attempt.

If EKI's successful marketing is unsavory to the Canadian law enforcement community, then it probably won't make a big impact in overall sales of the knives. I suspect that most of us who own, carry Emerson knives do so because of the quality we perceive in them, rather than their name, rather than tee-shirts that are sold by the same company, and rather than what the Canadian law enforcement officer might think.

I realize that is of little comfort to a purchaser in Canada. I really don't think I'd be too concerned about the intent of the knife maker, if I were purchasing the knife, however. What the knife maker intended when he made or sold the knives has little or no bearing on what you do with the knife. Any knife can be a defensive or offensive weapon every bit as much as it can be a tool. The distinguishing factor isn't a tee shirt, but the user.

 

[stabman]

I disagree. If I use a handgun defensively and end up in court, you can bet the jury will determine that the handgun was designed with lethal intent, too. After all, I woluldn't have been carrying it, if it was a paperweight.

If I'm carrying a knife which includes features for rapid deployment, which is positioned to be rapidly accessible, and I end up using it defensively, then a Jury can draw all the conclusions it wishes. If I can show that use of that knife, handgun, or other tool, weapon, or implement was necessary and justified, then the name on the weapon is of little consequence.

That EKI markets the knives in a big way to military and law enforcement can easily be shown to a jury as a responsible, professional market. Not exacty evidence of a reckless marketing attempt.

If EKI's successful marketing is unsavory to the Canadian law enforcement community, then it probably won't make a big impact in overall sales of the knives. I suspect that most of us who own, carry Emerson knives do so because of the quality we perceive in them, rather than their name, rather than tee-shirts that are sold by the same company, and rather than what the Canadian law enforcement officer might think.

I realize that is of little comfort to a purchaser in Canada. I really don't think I'd be too concerned about the intent of the knife maker, if I were purchasing the knife, however. What the knife maker intended when he made or sold the knives has little or no bearing on what you do with the knife. Any knife can be a defensive or offensive weapon every bit as much as it can be a tool. The distinguishing factor isn't a tee shirt, but the user.

I agree with alot of what you're saying.
Unfortunately, I'm operating within our laws here, so I have to take these things into account.
I like my Emerson's a bunch, but I'll likely be using them around the house or in the woods rather than out and about around town.

 

[RevDevil]

Would a court deem say an Emerson CQC 7, MORE deadly than say a Benchamde 760 or Spyderco Military? Based on the name? If that is the case, grab some sandpaper and sterilize the blades. I wonder how they would react to the Civilian...
Time to move South stabman

 

[stabman]

Would a court deem say an Emerson CQC 7, MORE deadly than say a Benchamde 760 or Spyderco Military? Based on the name?

In the case of the Military, the design blurb describes it as being a military utility type knife. It is described as a military tool.
I view Emersons as filling the same niche, as miltary tools, but the marketing says weapon more loudly.
I'd just like a more neutral advertising image.
I'll still buy them though.

 

[WolFF]

ah a fellow canadian,,! i know what you are saying, and i understand what you are saying.
just some info about canada, so you can understand his question. in canada we are allowed firearms,, you do however need a license, but storage is a huge issue, the laws are set so no matter what your firearm is stored in such a way, that no matter the situation your gun is locked and secured so you cant access it in any emergency, if say you use it to defend your family from a home invasion, the law and jury will determine you did not store your gun safely. basically in canada if you get a home invasion and your in a life or death situation and scared for you and your family . it is better to use a baseball bat, to bash in the heads of the invaders, than it is to shoot them with your locked up pistol or shotgun. infact its probably better in you favor if your baseball bat blow to the head happen to kill the invador apose to shooting them in the leg and them living, you have more explaining to do with your firearm than you do wiht the baseball bat. providing you actually play baseball, and the bat isnt the only thing in the house, ( glove, balls, etc)
so in defense to my fellow canadian how emerson markets his knives would affect him in court if it came to that.
but , in my opinion a knife is still a tool. think about a samurai sword, they were built and designed to kill. in the ancient samurai warrior. if you had one on a stand and used that. it be no different than an emerson knife. i think it would still come down to your character. technically the cops can confiscate any knife they want from a person. i have heard so many stories of people losing their knives to cops.. everything from a spyderco ladybug, to delica, endura ,to the steven segal kershaw or whatever it was to letherman multitools.. if the cop thinks its dangerous for anyone to be carrying a knife they can take it away. just as a hammer or axe or screwdriver. its basically their call.
if you get a knife or anything taken away you do have the ability and your right to argue it back. or dispute the matter. kinda the same goes for a ferrari,, they were designed to go super fast, and are marketed for racing. doesnt mean when you drive in one YOU are racing. its how you act while in it. if your weaving in and out of traffic and doing 100 in a 60..chances are they can take your license away+your car and say you were a danger to society.

carry your emerson and dont worry ... but i do believe carry a cqc7 is a big difference than a combat karambit. or a spyderco civilian. the uglier the knife the more looks your going to get when you bring it out for use. so if you dont want to attract attention keep something simple, like a satin finish cqc7 or a100 also if you ever drink. dont have a knife on you. theres little laws in canada that can really mess you up when you least expect it. like night clubs and bars, if your drinking you have no intention of using a tool. so even a knife being a tool would be considered dangerous to socitey while having a beer. you just have to be careful and if a cop does come up in a situation dont be a douche and think you have the right to be caring it. being polite,calm and honest can get you out of situations faster than just thinking you have the RIGHT to carrying it.

to people that dont like knives or guns ,it doesnt matter if you have a swiss army knife or a super karambit, to them its a knife and a knife is knife and if your out late at night waving it around . chances are you really shouldnt be having it, or being out in public.

 

[Seanski]

I live in Canada.
My knives are tools not weapons. All I carry are legal by Canadian law. I've never had a run in with police and never been asked to explain my knives. I've never had to pull a knife out in self defense nor will I ever have too. I will never carry around a knife with the purpose of it being used as a weapon.
I am a knife enthusiast and a small time collector and I guess my lifestyle and actions speak to it and that's why it's a non-issue for me. I don't really understand why most people would need to carry around a gun or a knife for self-defense.

 

[stabman]

but i do believe carry a cqc7 is a big difference than a combat karambit. or a spyderco civilian. the uglier the knife the more looks your going to get when you bring it out for use.

Yeah, good point.
Despite marketing, the CQC-7 looks alot more like a regular pocket knife.

 

[WolFF]

I live in Canada.
My knives are tools not weapons. All I carry are legal by Canadian law. I've never had a run in with police and never been asked to explain my knives. I've never had to pull a knife out in self defense nor will I ever have too. I will never carry around a knife with the purpose of it being used as a weapon.
I am a knife enthusiast and a small time collector and I guess my lifestyle and actions speak to it and that's why it's a non-issue for me. I don't really understand why most people would need to carry around a gun or a knife for self-defense.

i couldnt agree more, i am the same and believe the same.

i was just informing how our laws treat us and how they are situated . that is all. my main point was knives are tools, plain and simple. and to not worry about which knife you carry, as long as it falls in the legal in canada.

smart people dont get themselves into situations.
really smart people know how to get out of any situation without any harm.


i would like to add, in canada, our police are UNINFORMED, and are not educated on whats legal and not. and when they are unsure, they call it illegal. ie the karambit,,, not because of the blade. but because it has a hole for your finger, even though they ARE legal, some cops might look at them and be brass knuckle or something stupid like that. just as the la griffe and most neck knives. personally if it has a hole for your finger to sit in.. i wouldnt carry that. also .if its REALLY easy to flick open they can call them gravity knives. emersons are great for this .because i have yet to found an emerson that i can flick open. :thumbup: enjoy emerson, and if you like them get a shirt too. they are surprisingly great quality.

 

[HaroldB]

I live in Canada.
My knives are tools not weapons. All I carry are legal by Canadian law. I've never had a run in with police and never been asked to explain my knives. I've never had to pull a knife out in self defense nor will I ever have too. I will never carry around a knife with the purpose of it being used as a weapon.
I am a knife enthusiast and a small time collector and I guess my lifestyle and actions speak to it and that's why it's a non-issue for me. I don't really understand why most people would need to carry around a gun or a knife for self-defense.

Do you wear a seatbelt while driving? Or wear a helmet riding a motorcycle? Do you have a 1st Aid Kit at home?

Some people actually believe in the right of self defense. In 50 years of carrying a firearm I've never had to shoot or even show it to another human. But if someone were to attempt killing/harming my family, I'm prepared and willing to do so. I certainly don't want it to happen, but I'm in tune with reality enough to see violence happens in this world everyday.

 

[stabman]

This thread has had it's time, and now it's time for it to end.
I had my say, which is that I'd prefer neutral advertising ("The #1 Hard Use Knives in the World" gets the idea across while remaining neutral; why add more?), but now it's getting off topic.
Peace.