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Emerson Blade metal
- Thread starter almark
- Start date
Here we go again...
I know most of the answers (I think), but there are a lot of Emersonians here who can tell you a lot more than I can.
Actually, if you want to spend some time digging, there are some old threads that discuss all of these. I don't have time to find them now, but if nobody else answers your questions, I will try to find them and post them here.
-Scott
I know most of the answers (I think), but there are a lot of Emersonians here who can tell you a lot more than I can.
Actually, if you want to spend some time digging, there are some old threads that discuss all of these. I don't have time to find them now, but if nobody else answers your questions, I will try to find them and post them here.
-Scott
Al,
Check out www.emersonknives.com/faq.htm This should answer most of your questions. Also, in the last year or so he has switched from ATS34 to 154CM for his blades. You are the only one that can decide on what steel is best for YOU and your needs and circumstances, so I can't really say what is best. You need to research and found out what properties the different steels (ATS34, 1544CM, D2, O1, etc) have to find out what trade offs you are willing to live with.
-Scott
[This message has been edited by scott475 (edited 07-27-2000).]
Check out www.emersonknives.com/faq.htm This should answer most of your questions. Also, in the last year or so he has switched from ATS34 to 154CM for his blades. You are the only one that can decide on what steel is best for YOU and your needs and circumstances, so I can't really say what is best. You need to research and found out what properties the different steels (ATS34, 1544CM, D2, O1, etc) have to find out what trade offs you are willing to live with.
-Scott
[This message has been edited by scott475 (edited 07-27-2000).]
My 'Here we go again' remark was made in jest and I hope I didn't offend you, as that was not my intention. I said that because the some questions tend to come up here every few months or so. Again, my apologies if I sounded insulting.
Believe me, I am no knife expert, just a knife fan.
-Scott
-Scott
- Joined
- May 26, 2000
- Messages
- 1,922
Definitely use the search tools. You have to wade through a bit of fluff, but the info is already out there and you can whiz through it in an hour or two at most, so rather than waiting for people to respond, you're off to the races.
He uses 154CM, and if you are new to this, you can consider 154CM to be identical to ATS-34 if that helps. ATS-34 is a very good all around tool steel with nicely balanced properties if heat treated correctly.
Emerson's quality is about the same as the better Benchmade stuff (800/812/710, etc) but his prices are another 65% higher or more. So you are paying for his designs IMHO. And that's ok. His knives are just a bit beefier than Benchmade's better stuff.
You need to own a chisel ground knife to see if you like them or not. Emerson's are ground on the wrong side for right-handers who use their knives for utility purposes. Side it's ground on doesn't matter if you are using it to cut people or animals in defensive mode. This comment will elicit flames from Emersonians. Decide for yourself.
Suffice to say I'm often tempted to buy Ernie's designs (CQC8 Banana and Mach 1), but then I remember the chisel grind and go elsewhere. Your methods (preferences) may vary.
------------------
rdangerer@home.com
He uses 154CM, and if you are new to this, you can consider 154CM to be identical to ATS-34 if that helps. ATS-34 is a very good all around tool steel with nicely balanced properties if heat treated correctly.
Emerson's quality is about the same as the better Benchmade stuff (800/812/710, etc) but his prices are another 65% higher or more. So you are paying for his designs IMHO. And that's ok. His knives are just a bit beefier than Benchmade's better stuff.
You need to own a chisel ground knife to see if you like them or not. Emerson's are ground on the wrong side for right-handers who use their knives for utility purposes. Side it's ground on doesn't matter if you are using it to cut people or animals in defensive mode. This comment will elicit flames from Emersonians. Decide for yourself.
Suffice to say I'm often tempted to buy Ernie's designs (CQC8 Banana and Mach 1), but then I remember the chisel grind and go elsewhere. Your methods (preferences) may vary.
------------------
rdangerer@home.com
edmoses
Usual Suspect
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2000
- Messages
- 1,095
rdanger
Not to disapoint you with a lack of flames,
, us "Emersonians" are known as the Usual Suspects around these parts.
If you want to see a description of why the Emerson knives are designed the way they are have a look at this posting:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000474.html
Regards,
Ed
Not to disapoint you with a lack of flames,
If you want to see a description of why the Emerson knives are designed the way they are have a look at this posting:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000474.html
Regards,
Ed
- Joined
- Aug 22, 1999
- Messages
- 667
Rdangerer,
Just for clarification, the Mach 1 is not chisel ground. Nor is the Commander either.
They are V-grind.
Ernie purposely made these other designs for people who were not partial to the chisel grind.
I can assure you that it makes absolutely NO difference what side the grind is on w/regards to cutting various mediums incl.
skin, soft tissue et al etc.
Intially the Chisel grind was deveopled for working class (read peasants) and then the BUGEI (Military Method) for the BUSHI (Soldiers, Samurai, etc.)ripped off their idea and implemented it in combat. It was developed intially to make PRECISION cuts for Right handed people who would INDEX the cut w/ the FLAT side of the blade against their left Thumb, forefinger or both. This way they (Right handed people could make precision cuts) then as warfare progressed the longer Blades were deveolped along w/ RYU's (methods, styles, flow) of cutting the soldiers armour etc. (Katana, Wakizashi etc.) As these Weapons progressed variations were developed. Tips were changed, curves
modified, Hamons (Temper Lines) etc.
All have evolved and have their specific purpose.
W/ a Folding knife it's really irrelevant and inmaterial.IMHO
------------------
"WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOTS OF COMBAT, YOU REALIZE THERE IS NO STYLE"
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
[This message has been edited by Tamishigiri (edited 08-02-2000).]
Just for clarification, the Mach 1 is not chisel ground. Nor is the Commander either.
They are V-grind.
Ernie purposely made these other designs for people who were not partial to the chisel grind.
I can assure you that it makes absolutely NO difference what side the grind is on w/regards to cutting various mediums incl.
skin, soft tissue et al etc.
Intially the Chisel grind was deveopled for working class (read peasants) and then the BUGEI (Military Method) for the BUSHI (Soldiers, Samurai, etc.)ripped off their idea and implemented it in combat. It was developed intially to make PRECISION cuts for Right handed people who would INDEX the cut w/ the FLAT side of the blade against their left Thumb, forefinger or both. This way they (Right handed people could make precision cuts) then as warfare progressed the longer Blades were deveolped along w/ RYU's (methods, styles, flow) of cutting the soldiers armour etc. (Katana, Wakizashi etc.) As these Weapons progressed variations were developed. Tips were changed, curves
modified, Hamons (Temper Lines) etc.
All have evolved and have their specific purpose.
W/ a Folding knife it's really irrelevant and inmaterial.IMHO
------------------
"WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOTS OF COMBAT, YOU REALIZE THERE IS NO STYLE"
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
[This message has been edited by Tamishigiri (edited 08-02-2000).]
Hi Scott, No offense taken. I figured this topic would come up a lot. I own three Emersons (CQC7-A, Commander and LaGriffe). Many tactical officer friends and customers of mine ask about the construction of these aparently ver good knives. None of mine have seen any truly hard use yet and I am curious about what materials are used and why. Thanks for the dialogue.
Originally posted by scott475:
My 'Here we go again' remark was made in jest and I hope I didn't offend you, as that was not my intention. I said that because the some questions tend to come up here every few months or so. Again, my apologies if I sounded insulting.Believe me, I am no knife expert, just a knife fan.
-Scott
Hi Tamishigiri,
I could swear my Commander is chisel ground. I've carried it on and off for the past six months. I thought it was interesting that the grind was "uneven", with the tip showing more grind than the rest of the blade. I assuned this was to facilitate more aggressive cutting during a thrust.
I could swear my Commander is chisel ground. I've carried it on and off for the past six months. I thought it was interesting that the grind was "uneven", with the tip showing more grind than the rest of the blade. I assuned this was to facilitate more aggressive cutting during a thrust.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 1999
- Messages
- 667
Almark,
Both of my ES1-M are chisel as are all of the other ES1-M I have seen. Additionally I have seen some preproduction and Custom Commanders that are Chisel as well. To my knowledge however ALL production Commanders are V-Grind as are Mach 1's. I assumed that Rdangerer post was relating to Production models. I knew about the abberations and anomalies but just wanted to simplify. So much for that idea Heh ! Now I have to elaborate more ! Anyways, having done alot of Tamishigiri (read "Cut Testing") on various mediums, I can assure you it is negligible at best which edge cuts the best.
I'm more concerned w/ ergonomics, Balance,
construction, fit, finish, feel et al etc.
IMHO
------------------
"WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOTS OF COMBAT, YOU REALIZE THERE IS NO STYLE"
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
Both of my ES1-M are chisel as are all of the other ES1-M I have seen. Additionally I have seen some preproduction and Custom Commanders that are Chisel as well. To my knowledge however ALL production Commanders are V-Grind as are Mach 1's. I assumed that Rdangerer post was relating to Production models. I knew about the abberations and anomalies but just wanted to simplify. So much for that idea Heh ! Now I have to elaborate more ! Anyways, having done alot of Tamishigiri (read "Cut Testing") on various mediums, I can assure you it is negligible at best which edge cuts the best.
I'm more concerned w/ ergonomics, Balance,
construction, fit, finish, feel et al etc.
IMHO
------------------
"WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOTS OF COMBAT, YOU REALIZE THERE IS NO STYLE"
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
Thanks for the input. I agree that the most important things are how a tool feels in the hand, whether it be a Commander (knife) or a Glock and the level of confidence the tool instills in the user (reliability, durability, performance). I'm always curious about the whys, though. Why was one blade material chosen over another and based on who's experience / research. What kind of scales provide the best grip? ,etc. I must have been a real pain as a kid - why, why, why, why??? (because I wanna know : )
Thanks again.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 1999
- Messages
- 667
Almark,
As far as why was one Blade material chosen over the other. There are a couple of reasons. ATS 34 and 154 CM have a proven established track record. ATS 34 comes in big sheets that are more easily programed to be laser cut and making it desirable and a predictable medium.
It performs a multitude of tasks w/ minimal
maintenance and correctly tempered. IT is also afforadable.
As far as handle material, I always have preferred to work w/ Micarta. It gets tacky and yields super indexing/purchasing capability. Whether your submerged in Blood, fuels, HOH, or dirt, humidity, it still out performs G-10 to me. It's just not offered on alot of folders recently. I would love a ESM-1 w/ Micarta but such is life.
------------------
"WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOTS OF COMBAT, YOU REALIZE THERE IS NO STYLE"
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
As far as why was one Blade material chosen over the other. There are a couple of reasons. ATS 34 and 154 CM have a proven established track record. ATS 34 comes in big sheets that are more easily programed to be laser cut and making it desirable and a predictable medium.
It performs a multitude of tasks w/ minimal
maintenance and correctly tempered. IT is also afforadable.
As far as handle material, I always have preferred to work w/ Micarta. It gets tacky and yields super indexing/purchasing capability. Whether your submerged in Blood, fuels, HOH, or dirt, humidity, it still out performs G-10 to me. It's just not offered on alot of folders recently. I would love a ESM-1 w/ Micarta but such is life.
------------------
"WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOTS OF COMBAT, YOU REALIZE THERE IS NO STYLE"
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."