Emerson going soft?

oupa

oupa

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I have recently compared the following models side by side:
1998 Specwar : Thick liners - long back spacer - one detent – thick stop pin - smooth action – rock solid.
1998 CQC7A : A thick liner and a thin one – long back spacer - one detent – smooth action – rock solid.
2000 : CQC7A : Thin liners – long back spacer – double detent – thick stop pin - sluggish action – solid.
2000 : Commander : Thin liners – very short back spacer – double detent – thin stop pin – sluggish action – I can flex frame by hand.

I suspect these sacrifices were made to cut unit costs.
I particularly do not like the double detent – with a strong frame to support the blade it should not be necessary.
So the '98 were "overbuilt" - but then,that is what Emerson's reputation is based on, not so?

While the 1998 models are desirable, I would not buy the products manufactured during and after 2000 again – simply not worth the money.
 
Ernest Emerson IMO is a smart buisnessman. What he is doing is a result of inflation. By changing the construction of his knives he is able to keep the nominal price of them roughly the same as prices of materials increase. The real price of the knives have actually gone down. If Emerson kept the real price of the knives the same the nominal price of the knives would increase. This increase would turn many off to owning his production knives. Thus, he would sell less. By selling less, the nominal and real price of each knife would have to increase to make up for the loss of sales as the demand curve shifts to the left. Hope this made some sense. I have handled a few of the newer knives, but have not been fortunate enough to handle some of the older examples. Without experiencing the older pieces I am satisfied by the strength of construction on the Emersons I have handled. I think part of the problem is that Emerson fans were spoiled to some extent by the materials on older Emersons. Now, if Emerson were to go to liners of a lesser metal or a single liner then I would say Emerson is going about meeting a price point the wrong way. However, at this poin, I think Emerson is going about meeting a price point that gives the most utility to the most number of parties.
 
Oupa

Welcome back man! Where ya been?

As to the questions at hand, maybe I can help

The double detent.

In my opinion, all knives should be tip up carry. It's just so much more natural then juggling a tip down folder in your hand. Ask yourself why EKI is the only maker (that I can think of anyway. I'm sure if there is another, someone will correct me) that offers all it's models in tip up configuration. A detent on both sides of the blade is double the insurance that the blade will not come open in the carriers pocket accidently.

I might add that if they were cheapening out on the knives, why would they add steps to the manufacture? Wouldn't it be cheaper to skip cutting the second arm, having someone insert a detent ball, bend the arm and make the extra steps on the reverse side of the blade? Just a thought.

Backspacers.

Using the Commander as an example, the back spacer has never gotten shorter over the years, as a matter of fact, it's gotten longer. More material, meaning more cost.

Liners.

You are correct. The liners on the 98 models were thicker then they are today. Guilty. The older liners were .062 thickness Titanium. In 1999 EKI went to .050 thickness Titanium. A change of .012 thickness or about one hundredth of an inch.

EKI is a knife production facility. Aka they produce large numbers of knives for the public, many thousands a year. Ernest also happens to be a Custom Knife maker, making a tiny fraction of that number. EKI quickly found when they opened as a production company that large supplies of .062 Ti were spotty at best. There are many more applications for .050 and it offered more consistent availability. They just can't shut the doors to wait for a run of .062 to be made.

Here's a little tidbit that I picked up while out in California and that I hadn't placed on the forums . . . . There are "transition" knives out there, one liner thicker then the other, everyone knows that. But here's the kicker. Measure them. In many cases your going to find out that the liners aren't .050 and .062, their .062 and .068! Supply was so spotty, they had to move higher to get Ti for the liners. Every change in thickness, lot to lot, required that they re-engineer the locking arm.

I've even seen Customs with one liner thicker then the other.

Ti is an extremely tough material. Before casting stones at EKI for using .050 Ti, look at the other production knives on the market. Who is using thicker? How many are using thinner materials, even Steel instead of Ti?

Stop pins.

From the start EKI started used .125 x .375 hardened steel rod for it's stop pins. These have worked fine for year, save one specific lot of stop pins that had faulty heat treating. I see a lot of Commanders and have only seen four broken stop pins. All in 2000 models and two of them were the diskless run. In all cases the knives were back up and running 100% with a new stop pin.

I should note that the infamous '98 Commander (and all the customs) have a .125 stop pin. Again, let's look at the other makers.

What's the biggest, most bad ass folder on the market? Measure the stop pin.

With the third generation, EKI has stepped up to customer requests and designed/redesigned the knives for a thicker .190 stop pin. This phasing started in . . .2000.

In closing. EKI has always looked out for their customers. The venerable Commander even received a redesign this year (their at your dealer now). Included in the redesign was more and thicker traction grooves, a thicker Stop Pin and a longer back spacer. Additional cost to the consumer? Zip. Not a cent. :D

Enjoy

John

Edit: My spelling sucks tonight. Sorry
 
Liners might be thin for many models but the new triton x-39 is coming out with a new type of lock. Anyone have info on the new lock? triton x-39 looks like a winner.
 
one2gofst,
the triton was debuted sometime last year, if my memory does not fail me, and is Emerson's first automatic folder[known to us at least], it is basically an automatic version of the specwar...
 
The Triton X39 is indeed Emerson first Auto design, first shown at the Atlanta Blade Show in June 2001. There is to be a single action, "A" style spearpoint blade and plunger lock (similar to the MT UDT and others). There is also a Manual Action version with a traditional thumb disk, but the knife retains the plunger lock of it's auto brother.

I'll try to add a picture later tonight.

John
 
John,

Originally posted by John Hollister
Click to expand...

The older liners were .062 thickness Titanium. In 1999 EKI went to .050 thickness Titanium. A change of .012 thickness or about one hundredth of an inch.
Depends how do you look at those numbers. 0.12 out of of 0.62 is 19.35% decrease. Practically 1/5.

Ti is an extremely tough material. Before casting stones at EKI for using .050 Ti, look at the other production knives on the market. Who is using thicker? How many are using thinner materials,

Without casting any stones. Some of the folders have thicker liners, visually at least. Sifu, Strider, Benchmade, Microtech, even Beretta.

even Steel instead of Ti?
I think steel, especially hardened steel, is stronger than Ti given the same volume?
 
this is a most excellent thread. i hope it keeps going, cause i totally am enjoying the plethora of facts, and even, factiods i'm seeeing here about Emerson knives. now i am liking my '99 Commander even more (even my '01 mini 7B, tho ). kind of an "added value", i guess keep 'em coming, mr. Hollister, sir. i dig it:) :) ....feeling all warm 'n fuzzy now

....... john
 
Gator, welcome back as well. Hell you don't even like Emerson as I recall. :D

Got any numbers?

I'll help you out. Just went to the safe and checked a couple of knives.

MT LCC .062 Steel liners, .175 Stop pin
Lightfoot LCC .050 Titanium liners, .i65 Stop pin
Brian Tighe Tighe Stick .050 Titanium liners, .120 Stop pin
Allen Elishewitz Omega M5 .062 Titaniumliners, .150 Stop pin
Strider GB .090 Titanium liners, .122 Stop pin

Notice the only production model I have on hand is the MT LCC, anyone else care to share some numbers on some Benchmade, Spyderco, ect.

Also, I don't recall a Sifu being a liner lock. I thought they had the "Rolling Lock".
 
My concern with the 2000 Commander is that I am able to flex the handle and press the two sides inwards with my one hand.
If you take out the intermediate offerings and compare the 98 Specwar with the 2000 Emerson, it is a no-contest - as far as brute strength of the knife goes.

It is not just the liner thickness - rigidity is the key, I feel.
If I went to the trouble of installing a standoff (or two) between the stop pin and back spacer (or a long screwed down spacer) the Commander would become a more rigid construction.

I suspect that Emerson has picked this up and the longer spacer and thicker stop pin could cure this.

I am also tempted to do away with the second detent and install larger, thicker washer to compensate.
 
JimBob, Thank you Sir

Oupa, some people do simply give the second detent a little tweek away from the blade, it's well documented here on the forum. Your not going to need a thicker washer, the stock one will still work fine. The distance between the liner and the blade will remain the same, your only defeting the arm holding the detent against the blade.

Note: For those other people reading this thread that need this kind of thing.
Of course EKI doesn't recommend people defet the secondary detent. They put it there for a reason. Journey at your own risk.
 
Originally posted by John Hollister
Click to expand...
Gator, welcome back as well. Hell you don't even like Emerson as I recall. :D
I do like some of the designs, though because of the particular details I don't buy them.

Also, I don't recall a Sifu being a liner lock. I thought they had the "Rolling Lock".
I didn't say it's a liner lock, I was referring to the liners, I think they're still called liners whatever that is.

What I tried to say was that at the same thickness hardened steel liners would be stronger than Ti.

Anyhow, thanks for the numbers.
 
Anyone that thinks Emerson is going soft must not have looked at the 2002 Commanders, many many improvments over the 2000's.

I will trade 19% liner thickness for larger stop pin, larger backspace (now made of G10), new serations to aid in grip.
If anything I would say Emerson is making improvments in their line up!

Every company goes through a transition phase. 98 the cream of the crop, then they decided they needed to be able to make more product, so along came the late 99 and 2001's, still one of my favorites, slight change in liner thickness. Now we come to the 2002, man I would trade a 98 for 2 2002's any day of the week!!

This shows the company is headed on the right track, not that it ever got off. The 2000's are still great knives, but 2002 is the new benchmark in production tactical folders.
 
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