English longbow arrows!

[christcl]

Got a set of heavy English arrows by Rudder called the Crecy for my Qing bow.

35.25" overall length
1/2 inch diameter

Rated for bow draws from 100-110 lbs, should work pretty well for a Manchu bow.

Iron bodkin tips

For the price I wish they'd have reinforced the fletchings with nylon wrap in front, interwoven, and behind the feathers. But this makes it easier in case I switch to larger fletchings.

They dwarf the 300 grain tip 7595 Goldtip Hunter traditional arrows I've been using.

 

[cul4u01]

:thumbup:

 

[Bookie]

Neat traditional arrows. Watched an interesting video on You Tube where they proved that tip rarely penetrated the armor of that period, thus throwing mud on the St. Crispin's Day legend. I do so hate it when my childhood or long time beliefs get shattered. Kinda akin to finding out about Santy.

 

[Bawanna]

What about Santy, only 4 months away till he comes.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Very handy when the other guy is wearing armor. It's a pleasure to see that kind of craftsmanship. I couldn't even draw a bow that strong.

 

[christcl]

Neat traditional arrows. Watched an interesting video on You Tube where they proved that tip rarely penetrated the armor of that period, thus throwing mud on the St. Crispin's Day legend. I do so hate it when my childhood or long time beliefs get shattered. Kinda akin to finding out about Santy.

What poundage were the bows that they used? At over 100 lbs, even if it doesn't penetrate good steel armor, the impact alone would make for a very bad day. I always had the impression that the unarmored horse casualties would be enormous in cavalry charges. Unlike movies where the riders always get shot and the horses pass thru unharmed haha.

Very handy when the other guy is wearing armor. It's a pleasure to see that kind of craftsmanship. I couldn't even draw a bow that strong.

Part of the joys of archery, reusable and interesting ammunition!

 

[mtngunr]

Does the ATF know you have armor piercing penetrator tip ammo?...(wink!)

As for tests against armor, were these tests done at long range with a fully stabilized arrow slicing down from altitude at 32ft per second per second of fall/acceleration to terminal velocity in a swarm to go through any weak spot in horse or rider armor?.....angular momentum would be less, but they would be humming....where is our rocket scientist in Texas when you need him?

Most internet "proof" films are sadly lacking in knowledge from what i have seen....i guess the defeat of the French by the English was caused by something else decimating the Flower of France before the actual engagement of armor against armor...

I have seen the rare movie with probably every trick horse and rider in the nation where filmed have entire front lines of charging horse and rider go down, but they are rare....i guess for obvious reasons....

 

[davidf99]

Those tips might not penetrate plate armor, but I'm sure they would penetrate chain mail armor. Considering the weight of plate armor, it was probably worn only by mounted knights, and that only in certain historical periods. I doubt that infantry would stand a chance against those arrows. As for horses, even if partially armored they would still probably have large areas of vulnerability. An arrow wouldn't have to kill a horse to make it bolt and throw its heavily armored rider.

As I recall, some of the horses go down in the relatively recent film, "The Last Samurai." I don't remember how the horses fared in Kurasawa's film "Ran," but that movie has some of the most brutal battle scenes I've seen, especially at the end of battles when we see dead bodies strewn about like rag dolls, riddled with arrows in gruesome displays.

Post-battle image from "Ran." This is one of the less extreme images. I couldn't find the ones I was looking for. Maybe the studio decided not to make those readily available.

View attachment 573017

"Ran" warlord driven mad by the destruction of his kingdom, which he had foolishly divided among his three sons, who evidently were not very good at sharing:

View attachment 573018

 

[kronckew]

most steel plate armour was not as good as you might think. most knights wore a lot of areas of mail that was vulnerable around the neck, armpits, legs, groin etc. to allow them to move. the 'plate' was generally a thinner mild steel than modern testers try now. the french finally wised up later in the 100 yrs. war & increased the plate areas as well as learning how to use HC steel and properly harden and temper it to resist arrows. they also finally managed to kill off the majority of earlier knights that charged blindly at the english head on with their visors up. that's why they finally won. england held calais until the elizabethan era, and did not drop their claim to the french throne until the early 1800's.

the french at agincourt actually had a good attack plan involving attacking the flanks thru the woods that modern evaluators say would have worked a treat. only problem is they had a boozy night before the battle toasting their upcoming victory over the much smaller english peasant army who could not possibly defeat the chivalrous nobility of france. after some of the hair of the dog that bit them, they then proceeded to ignore the plan with the historic result. as noted, horses were not as well protected and were also vulnerable to getting stuck in the mud. the knights then were also stuck & exhausted trying to get out of it when the english archers didn't play fair & clobbered them.

what the french saw:
[video=youtube;vAUp1ripJLE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAUp1ripJLE[/video]

the english had 5000-7500 longbowmen who could fire 12 aimed arrows per minute, using the lower figure that's 5k x 12=60,000 arrows per minute or 1000 per second. they could have fired around a million arrows in 15 minutes. dotsa lotta arrows.

 

[ndoghouse]

100# is wicked! Ive used 45-60 but 100# Id love to play with that! Im making a primitive bamboo setup that will hopefully be at least 25#. Dont have a clue really what it will end up being. Here is my first knapped point. Ive knapped about 200+# of Texas flint so far to learn how to do this but its been fun. Awesome bow. Im new to this but I really want to get proficient. I figure ill start primitive first with materials I have on my property. Might go through plenty of bamboo to learn how to make a good one but what the hey!

 

[kronckew]

nice point. you could put someone's eye out with that. (as granny used to say. she has a lot to answer for )

 

[ndoghouse]

nice point. you could put someone's eye out with that. (as granny used to say. she has a lot to answer for )

Thanks Kronk. Not exactly suited for armor but nice for a rabbit or two. I suspect the discovery of metals allowed such visions as that French video. As much work that goes into making a stone point they probably would have thought twice before letting them rip.

 

[christcl]

Hehe, we are still wondering who the idiot was that contacted atf about that rigamaroo

Does the ATF know you have armor piercing penetrator tip ammo?...(wink!)

As for tests against armor, were these tests done at long range with a fully stabilized arrow slicing down from altitude at 32ft per second per second of fall/acceleration to terminal velocity in a swarm to go through any weak spot in horse or rider armor?.....angular momentum would be less, but they would be humming....where is our rocket scientist in Texas when you need him?

Most internet "proof" films are sadly lacking in knowledge from what i have seen....i guess the defeat of the French by the English was caused by something else decimating the Flower of France before the actual engagement of armor against armor...

I have seen the rare movie with probably every trick horse and rider in the nation where filmed have entire front lines of charging horse and rider go down, but they are rare....i guess for obvious reasons....

 

[Bookie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVuVtP_xepU

 

[mtngunr]

Archers and foot soldier were ignorant of laws of chivalry, and were not nobles and were not bound by those rules which only applied to conflicts between gentlemen.....so as cavalry and foot soldiers advanced, the archers moved up behind them, and cut the throats of wounded and helped themselves....

 

[mtngunr]

I am very impressed with the napping...and even knapping....tried my hand as a child under grandfather's tutoring both in water drop and pressure but never got anywhere mainly due to lack of anything to work with local as for flint/chert or even much in the way of rocks at all, about all we had was black dirt, red and pink clay, iron ore and water rounded quartz..at least the iron ore mixed with lard made a good face paint...and i had fun with sister playing pottery maker with the pink clay found in stream beds....is the bamboo a laminated bow?

 

[T. C. Weston]

Nice set of arrows!

That's some good work on that stone point. You know, I came here because of my interest in Kukris, and here I find topics on all kinds of other things I care about, archery, flintknapping, medieval military history, man! This place has it all!

 

[mtngunr]

Weapon guys are weapon guys....which makes them students of people, cultures, history, religion, tactics etc......we formerly had a much more mundane name.....geography majors.....but the media has taken over and made us weapon guys...

 

[davidf99]

... You know, I came here because of my interest in Kukris, and here I find topics on all kinds of other things I care about, archery, flintknapping, medieval military history, man! This place has it all!

Yep. Even math and physics. Thanks to mtngunr for this one:

View attachment 573601

Maybe a bit out of place in this thread, but I couldn't resist.

It gives me a thought: One of the big advances in firearms was the rifled barrel that makes the bullet spin. Is there any equivalent of that for archery? Perhaps the placement/orientation of the feathers?

 

[T. C. Weston]

Most definitely! This is done by attaching the fletching at a right or left helical, which spins the arrow down range. It's been a principle of archery as old as stone points.