Environmental rant

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Jan 4, 2003
Messages
659
WARNING: This is long rant. I don’t mean to offend anyone here; I just need to get this off my chest. (note: no one of this forum prompted me to write this. It is people around me on a daily bases.)

I grew up in nature and a have real passion and understanding for it. I love all plants and animals, and do my best to study them and be around them. It offends me when people who have much less understanding or appreciation for the nature cast judgment on me and the things I do.

It amazes me, and sickens me how far removed from nature most city people are. We are a part of nature, and a part of our environment. Like all other creatures, we play a vital roll in our ecosystem. It needs us as much as we need it. As humans we have managed to separate ourselves from the natural world, and it seems many of us have forgotten that we are just another species sharing this great planet. All creatures interact with the environment, including us. But because of our society’s structure, we do not interact on an individual level like most other creatures; we have industries doing it for us.

Like all creatures, we make use of natural resources to survive. Even “synthetics” are all created from natural materials. Nothing is 100% purely man-made. Your house, clothes and food all come from nature, and involve a certain environmental impact. But the same is true of virtually ever creature. Beavers cut down trees and build dams that destroy entire ecosystems. Bears pull down trees to get at nests in the branches. Caterpillars eat leaves, and often kill entire trees by eating all the leave on the given tree. That is nature, and the difference with humans is that we take it to an extreme because there are too many of us on this planet.

Nature controls itself, and this sort of “destruction” is mandatory to maintain balance in nature. Extreme are bad, but moderation is not just acceptable, it is important to maintain this balance. Clear cutting forests destroy habitat and entire ecosystems, and commonly cause extinctions. This is not good. Cutting down one tree in forest destroys nothing. The tree is not dead, it is just pruned, and no habitat has been destroyed. All the surrounding trees provide the same habitat so long as they are left there. Taking dead wood from the ground has impact. Dead wood actually provided more habitat than living trees. Moss, fungi, all kinds of insect, rodents etc, live in dead and down wood. Dead wood also provides nutrients to the ground. Living trees consume nutrients and too many living trees in the forest are not good. But nature controls that with fires, lightening, diseases, and of course all the creatures (eg. humans, beavers, bears…) that exploit them for shelter and food. I do not hear people complaining about other animals. The issue with humans and trees is clear cutting entire forests. Not taking down one or two trees in a huge forest.

I am sick to death of armchair environmentalists bitching about me cutting down 1 tree in the middle of a forest, or complaining about cutting branches off trees, or sticking knives in trees to take pictures. These people need to grow up, think about what they are saying, and take a serious look at their lifestyles.

Do you drink coffee? Rainforests are completely wiped out in order to grow coffee, not to mention the garbage and pollution involved in bringing it to you.

Do you drink alcohol? Look the amount of energy, garbage and waste that come out of making and transporting booze.

Do you buy bottled water, or soda etc.?

Do you keep you house cold to save energy and wear sweaters/hat indoors?

Do you pay extra close attention to your diet to make sure you only eat the absolute minimum requirements from each food group, to save plants and animals and energy?

Do you buy gear/clothes/other things that you don’t absolutely need for enjoyment?

I can go on for ever with these questions trying to make the point that virtually everything we do can be criticized, and that I can criticize you just as easily as you can criticize me. Before you cast judgment on others take at look at yourself and your lifestyle. You are a consumer. I am sick of people who consume much more than they produce yet rant and bitch about others. These people are not tree huggers or environmentalists. They are just wannabes.

A true minimum impact lifestyle would be living in the bush, off the grid and consume only what you can produce and hunt, thereby avoiding all the industry that brings you what you consume now.
 
Hey Will,

Bedtime story:

Once upon a time the Earth's atmosphere was clean and pristine. Some individuals were present who polluted their environments by their daily activities, but they were few and far between. Then some individuals formed cooperatives and gradually came together to colonize larger areas. The environment nearby was polluted so badly that wildlife driven out or killed by the pollution. Eventually the polluters dominated the entire world. By this time the Earth was in catastrophe. The oceans were fouled; the air was virtually unbreathable; poison rain fell, bathing everything on the land surface with toxic pollution. Entire ecosystems collapsed, never to return.

So ended the Archean period of Earth's history. Earth would never again be the same for the oxygen produced by the microbes which now dominated.

Scott
 
Corporate greed is going to do us in eventually.

Just read a couple of articles about how the larger timber companies are selling millions of acres. A lot of that will be developed eventually.

Just what we need. More subdivisions to support more strip malls and Super Wal-Marts.
 
Hey Will,

Bedtime story:

Once upon a time the Earth's atmosphere was clean and pristine. Some individuals were present who polluted their environments by their daily activities, but they were few and far between. Then some individuals formed cooperatives and gradually came together to colonize larger areas. The environment nearby was polluted so badly that wildlife driven out or killed by the pollution. Eventually the polluters dominated the entire world. By this time the Earth was in catastrophe. The oceans were fouled; the air was virtually unbreathable; poison rain fell, bathing everything on the land surface with toxic pollution. Entire ecosystems collapsed, never to return.

So ended the Archean period of Earth's history. Earth would never again be the same for the oxygen produced by the microbes which now dominated.

Scott

It is sad what the world has come too. It sucks to not be able to go out in the sun without protection from the harmful rays for expample. At least we are more aware of the problems and things are improving, unfortunatly not fast enough for us to see any real difference.
 
I pretty much see it as inevitable that the environment will drastically change as a result of human impact.

One thing that I believe will happen is that any nation that restricts itself drastically to reduce pollution will be outcompeted by those that don't. So I see the only successful strategy being one where optimal (investment vs return) practices are continued until they are not optimal, and then changing to the next optimal practice and so on. Otherwise you will be overrun by another nation with a more efficient way.

I am not saying pullution and environmental impact is necessarily good, but that it is a fact of life. Going to extraordinary lengths to mitigate it will only pan out of it is absolutely essential. Otherwise you loose your place in line on the food chain, so to speak.

Scott
 
Fact of life indeed. Fact of death also, if these folks are right:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11/21/climate.species.ap/index.html

Global warming already killing species, analysis says
POSTED: 8:25 a.m. EST, November 21, 2006
Adjust font size:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Animal and plant species have begun dying off or changing sooner than predicted because of global warming, a review of hundreds of research studies contends.

These fast-moving adaptations come as a surprise even to biologists and ecologists because they are occurring so rapidly.

At least 70 species of frogs, mostly mountain-dwellers that had nowhere to go to escape the creeping heat, have gone extinct because of climate change, the analysis says. It also reports that between 100 and 200 other cold-dependent animal species, such as penguins and polar bears are in deep trouble.

"We are finally seeing species going extinct," said University of Texas biologist Camille Parmesan, author of the study. "Now we've got the evidence. It's here. It's real. This is not just biologists' intuition. It's what's happening."

Her review of 866 scientific studies is summed up in the journal Annual Review of Ecology, Evolution and Systematics.

Parmesan reports seeing trends of animal populations moving northward if they can, of species adapting slightly because of climate change, of plants blooming earlier, and of an increase in pests and parasites.

Parmesan and others have been predicting such changes for years, but even she was surprised to find evidence that it's already happening; she figured it would be another decade away.

Just five years ago biologists, though not complacent, figured the harmful biological effects of global warming were much farther down the road, said Douglas Futuyma, professor of ecology and evolution at the State University of New York in Stony Brook.

"I feel as though we are staring crisis in the face," Futuyma said. "It's not just down the road somewhere. It is just hurtling toward us. Anyone who is 10 years old right now is going to be facing a very different and frightening world by the time that they are 50 or 60."

While over the past several years studies have shown problems with certain species, animal populations or geographic areas, Parmesan's is the first comprehensive analysis showing the big picture of global-warming induced changes, said Chris Thomas, a professor of conservation biology at the University of York in England.

While it's impossible to prove conclusively the changes are the result of global warming, the evidence is so strong and other supportable explanations are lacking, Thomas said, so it is "statistically virtually impossible that these are just chance observations."

The most noticeable changes in plants and animals have to do with earlier springs, Parmesan said. The best example can be seen in earlier cherry blossoms and grape harvests and in 65 British bird species that in general are laying their first eggs nearly nine days earlier than 35 years ago.

Parmesan said she worries most about the cold-adapted species, such as emperor penguins that have dropped from 300 breeding pairs to just nine in the western Antarctic Peninsula, or polar bears, which are dropping in numbers and weight in the Arctic.

The cold-dependent species on mountaintops have nowhere to go, which is why two-thirds of a certain grouping of frog species have already gone extinct, Parmesan said.

Populations of animals that adapt better to warmth or can move and live farther north are adapting better than other populations in the same species, Parmesan said.

"We are seeing a lot of evolution now," Parmesan said. However, no new gene mutations have shown themselves, not surprising because that could take millions of years, she said.
 
The thing that pisses me off the most is how much paper this country wastes and most of it is not recycled. I'm sick of all the salespapers that get dumped into my mailbox daily and I never shop at those places just because of this, I don't care how good their deals are. If I need to buy food or clothing, I know where to find it.
 
One of my biggest complaints is overpackaging. It seems everything is overpackaged these days. It is a pain in the ass, wastes resources and money, and creates garbage, lots of garbage. Look at your garbage, I will bet more than half of it is some sort of packaging.
 
It's almost like a mutant human virus came on the scene and like any virus, we eventually made the Earth sick. Of course, being a living entity, the Earth does have her antibodies available and it's really just a matter of time before the virus is destroyed and the healing can begin. Bummer for us, but the Earth will survive us.
 
It's almost like a mutant human virus came on the scene and like any virus, we eventually made the Earth sick. Of course, being a living entity, the Earth does have her antibodies available and it's really just a matter of time before the virus is destroyed and the healing can begin. Bummer for us, but the Earth will survive us.

Very true. We will never destroy nature. Nature is strong and will prevail. We are certainly changing it, but nature will get rid of us before we get rid of it. Quite frankly, I think we will get rid of ourselves long before nature has a chance.
 
It's almost like a mutant human virus came on the scene and like any virus, we eventually made the Earth sick. Of course, being a living entity, the Earth does have her antibodies available and it's really just a matter of time before the virus is destroyed and the healing can begin. Bummer for us, but the Earth will survive us.

This is an idea that comes up in the Matrix series of movies. Everytime I get on an Interstate or suffer work-hour traffic or watch another strip mall go up (where hardwoods used to be), I reflect on the human species as a virus.

Will, you're right about overpackaging. What the hell happened to just putting something in a box? That you can actually open without scissors and a lot of cursing?
 
It's all about wooden chopsticks, I hate them!
It's what they stand for. Yes, wooden chopsticks.
They are the problem.

Everytime I see wooden chopsticks I think to myself, how friggin dumb?
We cut down a tree and we make chopsticks, they get used 1 time, only one time, and get thrown in the trash!! (and you're still hungry an hour later).
How wasteful! I wouldn't hate them half as much if they would wash them, and get more use out of them, even recycle them into toothpicks, or firestarters, tent stakes? Anything. Wooden Chopsticks are the epitome of waste.
Next time you go to a chinese restaurant, JUST SAY NO to wooden chopsticks!!

Also, why are the people in third world having so many kids??
They like sex? They don't know what causes kids? ...or are they are just plain stupid? Human population is out of control.
India has over 1 Billion people?? Holy crap!! They are overtaking China! If each of them uses a set of chopsticks, that's an entire forest gone. Man, I hope they don't like chinese food, or we are in trouble.
They eat with their hands, don't they?
Good thing.
China? Damm. I know it's a big place, but, 1.3 billion people!!
Where does their pee go? The whole country must be a big toilet.
They wear masks because of pollution? yeah, right, it's because they got 1.3 billion people taking a dump at least once a day. You are talking metric tons of human fecal matter there.

Instead of giving them extra food, I'll tell ya what, let's send some condoms!!! Drop em outta C-130s! Clusterbombs of condoms. That's what these cultures need, more condoms, less kids.

We can moan about the US, and western civilization, but our population isn't growing like the 3rd world's.

Look at Africa. Drought, famine, the AIDS, and all of that!
That's what happens to humans when they overpopulate. maybe they can blame that on western civilization somehow?

We need to stop giving aid to these people. Yes call me unpassionate, call me uncharitable, but don't call me a chopstick user!
The more we feed these folks, and the more we give them medicine....it all sound like it is humatarian aid, but we are doing them, (and us) a huge disservice.
We are rewarding overpopulation and stupidity. Oh, you have 16 children, here, have a basket of fruit some anti-biotics and while you are at it here's a nice big cup of Sterilization for ya!
The next drought will only be worse, the next famine more severe, and we'll have to send more aid, and more food. It's a never ending downward spiral because we are rewarding BAD behavior.
Some natural event occurs, and then they are SOL, yet again. And, yet, they keep having more kids!

(I have it on good authority that Africans do not use wooden chopsticks, thankfully).

In China they will cause extinction in animals, just so they can powder their bones/horns to make aphrodesiacs out of them. Huh? come again? You got 1.3 Billion people and you want aphrodesiacs?? Knock Knock..Hello, McFly??
Anybody home? You don't need anymore aphrodesiacs, you need a swift kick in the cajones! ...and perhaps a few castrations too!

Causing anything to go extinct is no laughing matter, but, if i was hungry, starving, and killed the last wooly-mammoth to feed my family, then so be it.
But if I killed the last wooly mammoth so that I could get me some aphrodesiacs....well, that's pretty EFFED up!!

I think we should ban wooden chopsticks altogether.

Bird Flu? I say bring it on. We need a good pandemic.
Heck we might need a good asteroid strike too! Not a planet killer, but maybe one that would reduce human population by a half or so. instead of 6 billion, maybe down to 3 billion.
If we each eat using wooden chopsticks, once a year, that's 3 billion pairs of chopsticks!!

You see what I mean? it's the chopstick mentality that is so dumb with humans. It never works. Humans literally deforested the Middle East.
Ground salinity built up, and now they can't even grow food. Way to go humans!! I'll bet it would have happened quicker had they known about Chopsticks.

AND, don't get me started on those synthetic chopsticks. We throw those away too. How many barrels of oil does it take to make them for 6 billion people? i say we can do without them, wooden or synthetic.

Chopsticks are the problem.
 
It's almost like a mutant human virus came on the scene and like any virus, we eventually made the Earth sick. . . .

That's exactly what I am saying, but without the contempt.

We live on the planet, use its recources, deposit our waste. Just like every other organism on the planet. It drastically allters the environment. Few things have dominated the environment before us, but it is not without precedent. It is a fact of life, and thus also a "fact of death" as Guyon pointed out. We cannot dominate the planet without squashing out almost everything else.

I believe the news report is correct. I take several scientific journals, and they say the same thing: environmental change is accelerating at a rate that even startles the scientists.

Scott
 
SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE



I just had to get that out of my system:D
Skunkwerx made some good points that I don’t need to retype, but countries like China and India really need to get their act together before the eco Nazis come beating on my door and tell me I need to do without.

In the late 90s I was watching a show on cable, and there was a whiz bang smart guy talking about the year 2017 which is when the world’s population would double from what it was then. Some predictions where, that India would surpass China as the most populous country since they lack any birth control. India would look like North Africa since they are cutting down all their hard wood forests for substance living. The African continent will be a starving waste land. I guess disaster was adverted there once with the Agricultural revolution of the late 70s where they could grow more with less. So nobody worked on the over population problem they just fed more people and have that many more mouths to feed when the big crash comes.

The amount of illegal alien hitting Europe now from N Africa is just a sign of bigger things to come, I guess the guy predictions were basically once the have nots can’t get anymore food they will travel to take it.
 
What are you guys whining about? The modern world, with all it's wealth and waste, is a good thing. It allows me to buy knives at dirt cheap prices. Chopsticks even cheaper. I'll give it up when it's no longer affordable, which is the way things always work in the end.
 
countries like China and India really need to get their act together before the eco Nazis come beating on my door and tell me I need to do without. . . ..

This is the crux of th eproblem if you ask me.

But the Chinese et al won't get their act together. If the eco-Nazis force us to do without all they are doing is assuring that the Chinese will dominate us.

Scott
 
This is the crux of th eproblem if you ask me.

But the Chinese et al won't get their act together. If the eco-Nazis force us to do without all they are doing is assuring that the Chinese will dominate us.

Scott

I am actually hoping they will either become too much like us to make the effort or that they poison and kill off enough of their own population to not be a threat
 
Hey Will,

Bedtime story:

Once upon a time the Earth's atmosphere was clean and pristine. Some individuals were present who polluted their environments by their daily activities, but they were few and far between. Then some individuals formed cooperatives and gradually came together to colonize larger areas. The environment nearby was polluted so badly that wildlife driven out or killed by the pollution. Eventually the polluters dominated the entire world. By this time the Earth was in catastrophe. The oceans were fouled; the air was virtually unbreathable; poison rain fell, bathing everything on the land surface with toxic pollution. Entire ecosystems collapsed, never to return.

So ended the Archean period of Earth's history. Earth would never again be the same for the oxygen produced by the microbes which now dominated.

Scott


I just re-read your post and realize I completely missed the point first time around. Good comparison. The environment is constantly changing, and has been before we were even around. Change is not bad, it is just the cycle and is inevitable. (Of course it will be bad for us.) Species will always kill other species.
 
WARNING: This is long rant. I don’t mean to offend anyone here; I just need to get this off my chest. (note: no one of this forum prompted me to write this. It is people around me on a daily bases.)

I am sick to death of armchair environmentalists bitching about me cutting down 1 tree in the middle of a forest, or complaining about cutting branches off trees, or sticking knives in trees to take pictures. These people need to grow up, think about what they are saying, and take a serious look at their lifestyles.



Below is from a post you responded to.......
Mentor
Basic Member Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 219

Looks like a fun trip. Thanks for sharing.

One question though: why stick all those knives into a living tree?




Are you sure nobody on here upset you????
 
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