Epoxy pins in place or not?

C

Cushing H.

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So … I am having an internal discussion with myself. Most advice has been to epoxy pins in place to give side to side rigidity. A lot of other advice is to peen the pins (after reaming the holes slightly). For quite a while now I ALWAYS peen my pins.

The problem/observation though is that if you position and glue the pins, then wait until the epoxy has hardened, there is always a little epoxy between the pin and the bored handle hole, which after sanding down leaves just a little visible gap between the pin and the handle.

One possible solution is to *not* epoxy the pin, but rather just position the pin, then immediately peen. The question is … is doing this “ok”. I took this approach on a recent knife, and the result looks good, but I can not judge long term rigidity.

I suppose another approach is to use epoxy, but peen before the epoxy has set. But I keep thinking this is still likely a set up for a visible epoxy ring, and also likely pretty messy to execute.

What are your thoughts?
 
Your last approach works for me and has not left a ring and really not that messy when done after your handle is fully shaped and about at the 220 grit stage.
All though I usually just stick with Corbys or Loveless fasteners now.
James
 
Cushing H. said:
One possible solution is to *not* epoxy the pin, but rather just position the pin, then immediately peen. The question is … is doing this “ok”. I took this approach on a recent knife, and the result looks good, but I can not judge long term rigidity.
Click to expand...

There are blades a couple thousand years old that are pinned and still holding.

When I make a fixed blade I use Corby's, but if using pins I have assembled the scales with epoxy and used waxed pins and clamp the scales until set. Then I remove the waxed pins, clean holes and insert the final pins with epoxy and the lightly peen.

Also I have roughned the pins with 50 grit, insert and then apply water thin superglue and let it wick down the installed pin. Give a couple taps on the ends and it is good to go.
 
You are tackling a problem that I don't seem to encounter.
I make my pin holes in the tang slightly oversized, but a snug fit in the handle material.
I usually files some grooves in the pin (perpendicular to the axis of the pin).
I put glue on the tang, handle parts and pins.
After glue-up and sanding the excess pin stock flush to the handle, I don't get any gaps or glue rings...
 
at one time or another I have tried all of the above .... with no real "failures" .... but again, it is difficult to judge long term strength. Adam - I also always assemble my scales with waxed pins.

My question is really not about alternatives ... I LIKE the concept of peening the pins - I can understand how doing so adds strength and longevity (yeah adam - you are right, there are lots of knives out there that were assembled without any glue at all (just peened pins) .... but I do not see the benefit of doing so unless the hole is reamed out slightly. so, I guess my question is really - does anyone out there take the approach of no-epoxy - just ream the hole, insert pin, and peen. and if so, what has been your experience?
 
Cushing H. said:
So … I am having an internal discussion with myself. Most advice has been to epoxy pins in place to give side to side rigidity. A lot of other advice is to peen the pins (after reaming the holes slightly). For quite a while now I ALWAYS peen my pins.

The problem/observation though is that if you position and glue the pins, then wait until the epoxy has hardened, there is always a little epoxy between the pin and the bored handle hole, which after sanding down leaves just a little visible gap between the pin and the handle.

One possible solution is to *not* epoxy the pin, but rather just position the pin, then immediately peen. The question is … is doing this “ok”. I took this approach on a recent knife, and the result looks good, but I can not judge long term rigidity.

I suppose another approach is to use epoxy, but peen before the epoxy has set. But I keep thinking this is still likely a set up for a visible epoxy ring, and also likely pretty messy to execute.

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
I'm of the glue em in camp. What is your process that you are getting rings? No ring on the handle pin or tube:

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Cushing H. said:
at one time or another I have tried all of the above .... with no real "failures" .... but again, it is difficult to judge long term strength. Adam - I also always assemble my scales with waxed pins.

My question is really not about alternatives ... I LIKE the concept of peening the pins - I can understand how doing so adds strength and longevity (yeah adam - you are right, there are lots of knives out there that were assembled without any glue at all (just peened pins) .... but I do not see the benefit of doing so unless the hole is reamed out slightly. so, I guess my question is really - does anyone out there take the approach of no-epoxy - just ream the hole, insert pin, and peen. and if so, what has been your experience?
Click to expand...
I peen them all time .I do same way as Richard338 do that .Sometimes i use epoxy , sometimes not .I can t say that i can see some difference .BUT with epoxy MUST be better , do you agree with that ? I think that you complicated simple thing here ....After you peen pins you must GRIND that ........and that epoxy ring will disappear , it s not soaked 5mm. deep in wood for God sake .......
On this one pins a peened and epoxy used ..........no ring .
c6d7vxW.jpg
 
Horsewright - I glue the scales with temporary pins. Remove the pins for handle shaping. When shaped and finished to, say, 220 grit, I then ream the holes to give a larger hole at the surface of the shaped handle. THAT leaves an annular gap between the pin and the surface of the handle. If I glue the pin in .. that gap gets at least partially filled with epoxy. If I then let the epoxy cure, that epoxy stays in that gap, and because it is hard , it does not squeeze out when I later peen, sometimes leaving visible epoxy around the pin.
 
for me epoxy is for protection against any liquid that might get in there and corrode/rust. i don t do flush sanded pins anymore, i make a domed head on each side of the pin for an excellent mechanical fastener. i have seen old knives at flea markets where the scale warped and actually pulled away from the tang and the flush sanded pin pulled through slightly. i also favor corbys and the like. if you are getting rings around your pins your bit is too big, or the scales are wiggling or moving while being drilled, making the hole larger. if you are doing flush sanded pins you could clamp the handle together, and peen while the epoxy is still liquid and filling more of the hole with the expanded pin end.
 
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john april said:
for me epoxy is for protection against any liquid that might get in there and corrode/rust. i don t do flush sanded pins anymore, i make a domed head on each side of the pin for an excellent mechanical fastener. i have seen old knives at flea markets where the scale warped and actually pulled away from the tang and the flush sanded pin pulled through slightly. i also favor corbys and the like. if you are getting rings around your pins your bit is too big, or the scales are wiggling or moving while being drilled, making the hole larger. if you are doing flush sanded pins you could clamp the handle together, and peen while the epoxy is still liquid and filling more of the hole with the expanded pin end.
Click to expand...
there has been a great deal of discussion here in the past about the need to **enlarge** the end of the hole specifically to allow room for the pin to expand when peened (forming something like a dumbell shape) precisely to avoid the pull-through of a straight pin you are talking about john. If you dont enlarge the hole, then you risk your pull-out, or you also risk splitting the wood of the scale (dont ask me how I know). I know .... one might say "just barely hit the end of the pin" .... but if you do that, then you are not really enlarging the head of the pin, and not creating a mechanical locking mechanism .... and do so you might as well not peen at all.

John - the idea of a "domed" head pin in intriguing, but how do you go about creating a "dome" without enlarging the diameter of the pin directly underneath it? Also ..... how does it feel in the hand? I'm afraid I have gotten very used to looking specifically for a flush surface as the pin/scale interface....
 
Horsewright said:
I'm of the glue em in camp. What is your process that you are getting rings? No ring on the handle pin or tube:
Click to expand...
Dave - I know that when you use mosaic pins in handles you do not peen them, just insert into a very slightly oversize hole and glue. But .... I am spefically talking about brass or nickle silver pins, which *can* be peened .... and for which I can swear that there have been many discussion in the pase *should* be peened...
 
Richard338 said:
You are tackling a problem that I don't seem to encounter.
I make my pin holes in the tang slightly oversized, but a snug fit in the handle material.
I usually files some grooves in the pin (perpendicular to the axis of the pin).
I put glue on the tang, handle parts and pins.
After glue-up and sanding the excess pin stock flush to the handle, I don't get any gaps or glue rings...
Click to expand...
I do it the same way. Have made well over 100 knives and have never had one separate with just glued pins. In fact went to regardless one once for some cracked wood and it took me well over a 1/2 hour to get the scales off and pins out.
 
DukeHarley said:
I do it the same way. Have made well over 100 knives and have never had one separate with just glued pins. In fact went to regardless one once for some cracked wood and it took me well over a 1/2 hour to get the scales off and pins out.
Click to expand...
Hmmmmm. I am almost wondering whether I should ask stacy to re-name this thread something more like: "to peen or not to peen, that is the question." Like I said, in the past there has been a LOT of discussion about peening, including the need to ream the holes to give room for expansion of the pins....

I actually STARTED by not peening, just roughing up the pins and gluing into slightly oversized holes, then shifted to peening (which make a whole bunch of mechanical sense) after people here discussed the benefits of peening. Seems to me now that the tide has shifted (so to speak) towards NOT peening. Ill have to admit some confusion .... but lets see where this goes.....
 
cushing, i am sure the pin enlarges in the hole itself while making a domed head. i do not consider that a bad thing. i do not notice it as being bothersome in the hand. i do not think notice them at all. i think nick wheeler uses domed pins on his bowies. back when i did flush pins, even if you dont widen the hole near the top, the pin getting wider will move the handle material out of the way, and spread it wider, closing any gap and leaving no circle. but for me, mainly doing loveless type handles with a lot of curves, the widened end of the flush pin would be ground off during handle shaping, unless you do the pins after the majority of shaping. the first photo has a flush and 2 domes. the flush is just for looks. just for clarification, the knives i saw with warped scales pulled away from the tang and pins were older used vintage knives. i am very concerned how my work will hold up after 30-40 years, not just when the buyer opens the package.
53D24BBB-0125-4482-AA3F-5DEEF395C45F_1_201_a by john april, on Flickr

9D1FCA7F-0B2E-4CD1-B8D2-B5D364565224_1_201_a by john april, on Flickr
 
Guys
i keep seeing postings like this about peening pins (how to get the heads bigger/rounder/ easier to peen )
the answer is actually very simple!!! make a block of steel with the correct sized holes in in and bevel with whatever you want to take the sharp corner off (Heat treat it) and use the block to peen
1/2 of the pin before you put it onto the knife!!! this gives you a easy way to make your pin whatever length you want , and provides a head to strike against as you
peen the other side ..
i'm sorry to keep pointing out the (SAME Trick) but hey it does work....
 
Cushing H. said:
Hmmmmm. I am almost wondering whether I should ask stacy to re-name this thread something more like: "to peen or not to peen, that is the question." Like I said, in the past there has been a LOT of discussion about peening, including the need to ream the holes to give room for expansion of the pins....

I actually STARTED by not peening, just roughing up the pins and gluing into slightly oversized holes, then shifted to peening (which make a whole bunch of mechanical sense) after people here discussed the benefits of peening. Seems to me now that the tide has shifted (so to speak) towards NOT peening. Ill have to admit some confusion .... but lets see where this goes.....
Click to expand...
Now when I do metal bolsters I either press in my homemade pin press, got idea and sketch from Dustin Williams, or I’ll just peen them.
 
So many people can't grasp that peening is not slamming the pin with a large hammer, and swelling it it's entire length.
Peening involves forging a HEAD on each end. This head can be raised or cut flush. The head holds the parts together. It's not hard to do, but it does require finesse-which comes with practice.
Here is an old, terrible quality video on peening pins:
 
Another something is to drill the pin holes the same size as the pins. The pins won't really fit but, chuck them in the press and sand them down a bit until they do.
 
Question: is it peining or peening? One's a surface treatment. The other's a fabrication technique. I'm confused.
 
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