ESEE vs Becker Cage Match explanation

T

TAGannon

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[youtube]A5GyJCP7FsI[/youtube]

Seems my little experiment is not as well received on this side of the fence as it was on the ESEE side.

A little background as to why this happened at all would be helpful.

A few weeks ago on the ESEE forum I commented on how when I went to re-profile the edge on my Becker BK-2, I could use a double cut bastard file. When I tried the same on my ESEE 5, it simply slid along and did not bit in. I concluded the ESEE was heat treated better and made the snarky comment that “I could probably baton my 5 through a BK-2”. Someone responded with “put your money where your mouth is.” So I did.

Initially, it looked like the ESEE was doing a number on the Becker. But, after some discussion, it was chalked up to different edge geometry.

So, I decided to really try and cut one in half. If you watch the final video above, you can see and hear that I am really whaling on it.

Below is what I wrote in my conclusion post on the ESEE forum.


As requested, this is the final installment of the Trilogy.

Basically I’m speechless. I upped the ante with a 24 oz. ball peen hammer and solid support under the blade so it could not slip down in the vise. You can hear in the video stuff flying all over the place and falling off my workbench.

You can also hear the phone ring in the background. That was Ethan Becker calling. I kid you not. What a thrill. He is a very kind and generous man. He will be providing a few knives to servicemen in Afghanistan on behalf of this venture. I enjoyed our visit immensely. Now I’m looking forward to that beer even more someday.

There was that strange yet familiar smell as in parts 1 and 2. But after the blades stopped cutting into each other, the smell went away. I knew at that time that any more pounding was an exercise in futility. Hopefully in the video you can see the polished interior of the “serration” on each knife. They basically pounded each other to a high gloss finish.

The cut in the hammer face did surprise me. The miniscule damage to the blade did as well.

The lawnmower blade did have some edge compression. The spine of the Becker did not. What was really amazing is the depth of the dent in the cold chisel. I had it under the mower blade to jack up the blade of the Becker. That in itself should be plenty of evidence of how hard I was pounding.

The spine of the ESEE did show some deformation, but nothing that a little emery cloth couldn’t clean up.

How neither blade exploded is beyond me. 1095 is clearly an amazing steel. Don’t let those hoity toity knife companies with the mystery steels fool you.

My respect for Becker is now HUGE. I honestly thought the ESEE would go through it. I was wrong. I am proud to own both brands and will now start carrying Becker on my site to be along side of ESEE. No other factory knives could possibly stand up to the punishment I doled out on these two warriors. I will proudly display them both and enjoy sharing the story of this somewhat unorthodox experiment.

Thanks,
Tom

 
When I tried the same on my ESEE 5, it simply slid along and did not bit in. I concluded the ESEE was heat treated better
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well, the only conclusion i would make there is that the ESEE had a higher RC and the Becker had a lower RC.

what's that translate to? well, the ESEE would keep an edge longer than the Becker but be harder to sharpen. the Becker, would be the reverse.

a "proper heat treat" would mean that the RC is consistent, that maximum toughness is wrought from the given alloy, which is to say, that the resulting knife is not brittle, or prone to exploding, fracturing, or splitting.

seems to be both knives had very nice heat treats :)

there's also a factor that sometimes after you've sharpend a knife a bit, you get into the really nice hard steel, and your edge retention goes way up, and you might find that same file skittering over that edge now.

Seems my little experiment is not as well received on this side of the fence as it was on the ESEE side.
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i dunno, i was amused. i think many more were. Beckerheads aren't koolaid drinkers though, and i don't think we came to the conclusion that there was a winner. just two tough knives.

course, that might just be my opinion :)
 
sure there's a winner -- the soldiers who receive high performance cutlery out of this thanks to the generosity of Jeff & Ethan. (and TAG for refusing free replacements)
Obvious losers would be the hammer that got bit back and the cold chisel...
 
I wasn't annoyed at your test but at your condescending tone in the (first two - haven't watched the third yet) videos. I didn't and wouldn't call you names or rant - they are your videos and your knives - but when you take a tone like that, you have to expect a bit of pique.

Anyway, glad you had fun with the test and it's cool as heck that some service men are getting free blades a result of the test and the makers' generosity. Hope you have a great rest of the day.

---

Beckerhead #42
 
Eh, no hard feelings from me, I been wanting to do it for a while, and I'm probably the biggest BK2 promoter on here. It is by far my favorite blade and this changed nothing for me. Really, I kinda knew what the results would be, but I don't think either would really be better than the other. By the time it was finished, the notches were almost identical. There was some more peripheral damage to the BK2, but I chalk that up to the edge geometry. I own both, use both and have full confidence in both. For me, the handle makes all the difference in the world though. I get hotspots from the ESEE when I do prolonged work. Not so much from the Becker Grivory.

Tom, good show.

Moose
 
I just wish there were more girls in bikinis in the videos.
 
I thought it was pretty cool bro. Your money, your toys, so no one really has any right to whine about it. Pretty awesome to watch.

So, the sheath and handles from that Becker available or what? I needs em.
 
Looks really stupid to me, too much time and too much money lead people to do stupid things, with knives and otherwise. I am glad you wasted your time, money and filmed it for posterity but to know a knife with a higher RC can cut through one with a lower RC was proven a while back, a long, long while back...this is right up there with Noss' BK9 test.
 
Yer a nutter and that's hilarious! (I mean that in a nice way)

I bet if you kept moving the top blade to a new sharp section you eventually would have made more progress. I'm not surpised that the chipping stopped at some point. You're probably beating two 1/8" cross-sections against each other - I wouldn't expect much cutting at that point. It's nice that they didn't shatter to pieces. Looks like a good temper.

If the edges are indeed harder than the rest of the knife, then moving to sharper sections would probably have made more progress. I don't think it would have *proven* anything, except that one knife can cut through another with proper technique. With a differential temper on the target knife I'd expect you to have more luck cutting through from the spine to the edge. Again, this wouldn't prove anything about the relative quality of the blades, but would be an interesting video.

-Daizee
 
That's what was needed - more definitive results. My complaint with the initial vids was you just stopped too soon for the heft of the BK2 to kick in.

Great test and unbelievable results. I applaud your not making a warranty claim on the knives - I might send that chisel and hammer back though, wow.
 
I for one enjoyed it, I thought it was entertaining, not something I would do but entertaining all the same. People on this forum need to chill out, I mean god you wrecked a couple of knives, big deal, its not like you commited genocide or went on a killing spree. People need to remember a knife is a knife, a tool for a purpose and although I love them they are nothing to cry about. If I had the money to torture test knives just for curiosities sake I would be doing it to.

I did cringe whilst watching the test, it almost hurt but hey, your money, your knives, more power to you
 
It would have been better if you didnt hit them together like you did.

if you put them through head to head challenges cutting through, batoning and slicing the same materials would have been better served demonstration

example: after batoning through multiple ironwood logs seeing what the paper slicing ability is of both stock knives, that sort of thing
 
Wow, there are alot of you that have some really negative reactions to this. Kinda surprised. I thought this was a laid back place where people could relax, shoot the bull(moose, ha!) and have a good time and share our ideas and our goofs and not get such negativity. TAGannon didn't come to your house and take your knife and start beating it up, he bought one. Yeah, maybe he has money to throw around, and you know what? Good for him. He isn't the only one. Others do too (pretty much every Busse customer ever).

I guess it is your prerogative to think what you want, but where is the little boy in you that wants to see two matchbox cars ram into eachother? Where is the kid that took apart a vcr to see how it worked? (Guilty.) You can't tell me you have never looked at those two knives and wondered, just a little bit, which would win, can you? I have. I look at my BK2 and a cinder block and wonder. My Jeep. My cat. My neighbor's tiny yippy dogs.

Even if you are against it, even if you hate the idea, you guys should at least respect the fact that he had the courage to do it, knowing full well that they wouldn't be getting replaced, cause he is a stand up guy that isn't going to try to send em in for warranty, even after THE OWNERS of the respective companies said he could. He did a really awesome thing and now not only did we all get a little bit of entertainment, some soldiers are going to get some great knives too.

TAGannon, I feel I must apologize for some of my fellow Beckerheads here. Not sure why they take such offense to what you did, but I personally think it was awesome. Thanks for showing us a cool video that reinforced all of our beliefs about our knives being awesome and nigh indestructible, both Becker and ESEE (Rat, whatever their name is this week) and thanks for having the balls to do it.

Maybe you could get a few more posts in and a few more threads started and get a Beckerhead number for yourself. I for one would be glad to have you among our ranks.
 
DerekH said:
Wow, there are alot of you that have some really negative reactions to this. Kinda surprised. I thought this was a laid back place where people could relax, shoot the bull(moose, ha!) and have a good time and share our ideas and our goofs and not get such negativity. TAGannon didn't come to your house and take your knife and start beating it up, he bought one. Yeah, maybe he has money to throw around, and you know what? Good for him. He isn't the only one. Others do too (pretty much every Busse customer ever).

I guess it is your prerogative to think what you want, but where is the little boy in you that wants to see two matchbox cars ram into eachother? Where is the kid that took apart a vcr to see how it worked? (Guilty.) You can't tell me you have never looked at those two knives and wondered, just a little bit, which would win, can you? I have. I look at my BK2 and a cinder block and wonder. My Jeep. My cat. My neighbor's tiny yippy dogs.

Even if you are against it, even if you hate the idea, you guys should at least respect the fact that he had the courage to do it, knowing full well that they wouldn't be getting replaced, cause he is a stand up guy that isn't going to try to send em in for warranty, even after THE OWNERS of the respective companies said he could. He did a really awesome thing and now not only did we all get a little bit of entertainment, some soldiers are going to get some great knives too.

TAGannon, I feel I must apologize for some of my fellow Beckerheads here. Not sure why they take such offense to what you did, but I personally think it was awesome. Thanks for showing us a cool video that reinforced all of our beliefs about our knives being awesome and nigh indestructible, both Becker and ESEE (Rat, whatever their name is this week) and thanks for having the balls to do it.

Maybe you could get a few more posts in and a few more threads started and get a Beckerhead number for yourself. I for one would be glad to have you among our ranks.
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I agree. Maybe it's not PC to bash blades in that way. I for one am sick of all the PC attitudes. Sometimes it's fun to be primal!!!!!!
 
Yeah, they're his blades and he can do whatever with them.

Hey Derek! I remember back when I got my first big knife. The Gerber Outback Bowie, with the coffin shaped Kraton handle. 9" of 5/16" thick, flat ground 425M steel. I beat on everything with that knife. Chopped on all kinds of wood and trees. Cut holes in a metal garbage can. Batoned it through a brick and broke bricks with the spine. Chopped cinder blocks with the spine and the edge. Stabbed it through a car hood and through the front window too.

Other than some obvious edge damage, it didn't hurt the knife at all. The edge never chipped at all. Just dents and rolls. Threw it in the Lansky clamp and all was good afterwards. :D

No offense to any Beckerheads, but if the BK2 had "won" I bet that the responses would have been a little different.

Still, it was a waste of two good knives. At least the experiment did some good for whoever gets the "replacement" blades. They're going to end up with some first class knives. :thumbup:
 
cramsey3006 said:
Yeah, they're his blades and he can do whatever with them.

Hey Derek! I remember back when I got my first big knife. The Gerber Outback Bowie, with the coffin shaped Kraton handle. 9" of 5/16" thick, flat ground 425M steel. I beat on everything with that knife. Chopped on all kinds of wood and trees. Cut holes in a metal garbage can. Batoned it through a brick and broke bricks with the spine. Chopped cinder blocks with the spine and the edge. Stabbed it through a car hood and through the front window too.

Other than some obvious edge damage, it didn't hurt the knife at all. The edge never chipped at all. Just dents and rolls. Threw it in the Lansky clamp and all was good afterwards. :D

No offense to any Beckerheads, but if the BK2 had "won" I bet that the responses would have been a little different.

Still, it was a waste of two good knives. At least the experiment did some good for whoever gets the "replacement" blades. They're going to end up with some first class knives. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

there was a winner?

I concluded from those videos it was a tie.
 
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