estate sale find = help ID maker of 1840 sword

L

louis57

Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
3
Hi forum readers,
Good Morning!
Just wondering if anyone might know the maker of a 1840 "wristbreaker model" sword I bought at a local estate sale yesterday. The makers mark on the sword is "K & C" in an oval near the handle. Steel scabbard is unmarked.
I hope it is am American maker but have been told by a civil war collecter that it most likely is European/German because he has never heard of that maker. His theory is that IF it was American made, he would have heard of them. He is probably right, so here I am to confirm his thinking. Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
regards, Louis
 
Let’s see if we can find the right forum …
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I suspect if you want to get any useful advise you are going to be needing to post some pictures.
 
It does not sound like the mark of any American source and doesn't fit the only online list I am aware of with pictures of the marks.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/marks/page1.html

It is possible it is a French made 1822 and a clear profile picture of the hilt would confirm that. There is a not so explanatory picture of an 1822 here and also some articles about French sword markings. the CK could also be an inspector's stamp. There are some significant differences between the 1822 and the other countries' version of it but tough to spot if one is unfamiliar,
http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/

The type was widely produced by many companies in Solingen and was not only in use by America, as adopted in trials and originally contracted through Schnitzler & Kirschbaum.
http://www.awod.com/cwchas/m1840.html

There is a book title by Richard Bezdek that would probably explain the mark if it is a German made sword but I don't own it. This authors titles are somewhat browsable via Amazon, through their Look Inside program if you are registered.

There are folk over at http://forums.swordforum.com with the book and may be familiar with the mark you describe. George Wheeler, posting in the Antique&Military room there comes to mind as someone that might know off the top of his head. Bernard Levine, here at Blade Forums might know as well, as he is pretty familiar with the Solingen makers.

Cheers

GC

A Quiz for our viewers at home.
I'm going to include photos of an 1822 and S&K made 1840 below. See if you can read the differences and reply with what you may note. Photos were gleeped and are used here for education purposes only.
swordfrenchm1822sn2387-copy.jpg

M1840_S.jpg

Hotspur; Then take a closer look at Cold Steel's "1860" offering
 
ooh, ooh, can I play? which one of these is not like the other? hehe
differences I noted, first sword's blade extends in line with the handle, as opposed to the other which is angled. also, first scabbard has single attachment loop, second has two. lastly, (and this may only be the angle of the picture) the basket on the second sword appears to extend further down to cover the back of the hand a bit more.
 
Zog the Troll said:
ooh, ooh, can I play? which one of these is not like the other? hehe
differences I noted, first sword's blade extends in line with the handle, as opposed to the other which is angled. also, first scabbard has single attachment loop, second has two. Lastly, (and this may only be the angle of the picture) the basket on the second sword appears to extend further down to cover the back of the hand a bit more.
Click to expand...

That is fairly astute. The single scabbard ring just means a later dated 1822 (ungracefully cleaned/sanded off that exampl) but you can have a point for that. I was really interested in promoting what one might see different about the swords themselves and you are on the right track. How about something as obvious as what the baldes themselves might show?

Yes, the grips and cant (angle) are different, quite different yet somewhat similar. The brass is quite different as well. Does anyone see/agree with what I'm alluding to about the Cold Steel offering? What are basic differences between America's two most commonly carried sabres ("Heavy" and "Light") by federal troops during the ACW?

Cheers

GC
 
Hi,
Thanks for all the info from forum members. I understand that a picture is worth a thousand words. Unfortunately my 2 year old PC died(main board fried), so I am using my 7-8 year old PC that somehow got shoved in a closet 2 years ago. I am suprised it still works! lol
Having said that, I cannot post pictures with this PC as I do not have the needed programs to get the pictures from my digital camera to the hard drive, nor do I have the FTP program to upload images to my webspace.
I will try to find a way in the next few days to get pictures at this post for the benefit of learning about another (perhaps thus far undocumented) 1840 makers mark. If it cannot be done at this time, I will see to it when a new PC is aquired and the needed programs are installed.
It's the least I can do for the forum members and the curious alike.
regards, Louis
 
Louis

your sword was made in Germany by Kirschbaum and Companie (K C)

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/marks/page1.html

Horseclover

Your sword is made in France, as stated on the spine of the blade. Manufactured at the Armoury of St Etienne. I have a few bayonets by the same armoury and it is of great help that they also engrave the month and year.

S & K is Schnitzler and Kirschbaum

The USA borrowed the pattern (style) from the French.
 
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