Etching 5160??

[Rick Baum]

I just got the handle on my first forged blade (this is the one I posted a thread a week or so ago about copper patina's). The blade is 5160 steel from a John Deere load control shaft. I etched it twice prior to putting the handle on. Both times, when I sanded or buffed the blade, the temper line and any color differences between the hardened and soft portions of the blade just washed out. The first time I used 1200 grit sand paper and the second time I lightly buffed using white buffing compound. I really like the look of the grain structure though. It has a fine Damascus look.

What am I doing wrong, or what do I need to do to end up with color differences between the hard and soft portions of the blade? Is 5160 difficult to get the hammon to show up on? Just how dramatic of a color difference should there be?

Thanks,
Rick

 

[Galloglas]

In my experience, any sanding and most buffing with a mechanical wheel will wipe out the entire etch in one shot!

I use multiple etches in hot vinegar and rub the black oxide that forms off with Flitz, Simichrome, Pikal or Noxon. For me the key is to get the surface polished and then etch to bring up the temper/hardening line. No sanding after the etch for me!

Blade by Howard Clark in my polish and mount.

Years ago I tried to buff with white compound on a Dremel drill with a cotton wheel and it eliminated the temper line in a wink. Plain carbon steel are the best for showing a temper line but 5160 works just fine if you do the etch and polish correctly.

Good luck,

Brian

 

[burke531]

Rick,

bring your blade up to a mirror finish. submerge in a five to one mixture of water and ferric cloride and let set for ten minutes. remove and rinse in warm water then soak in amonia or tsp. buff lightly with white compound. repeat if necessary.

 

[Wild Rose]

(this is the one I posted a thread a week or so ago about copper patina's)

Rick how did that patina stuff work out or have you gotten that far yet?

Chuck

 

[Rick Baum]

Thanks for the tips Brian and Bill. I'll give it another try or two or three....
Bill, I have been using the ferric chloride too, but I think I have been mixing it too strong. I'll try it weaker and shorter soak time.
Brian, Are you using cider vinegar and how hot are you heating it? How long are your soak times?
Chuck, So far I have been fooling around with the patina's on some copper bar stock to try and get a nice look before I use it on the knife. I purchased some of the "tan" and "mahogany" patina's from one of the links you provided. I can't get the tan to work much at all, but I really like what the mahogany does. If you buff the copper and heat it prior to applying it you get a iridescent multiple color effect. I have been messing around trying to get the right combo of iridescence and a solid brown. I'll post some pic's as soon as I get it how I want it.

Rick

 

[Galloglas]

I always polish the blade to get the best geometry and a 1000 grit finish. Then I warm the blade over the stove until it becomes warm to the touch...not hot enough to be uncomfortable, just warm. I clamp the blade so that it is parallel to the floor in a Panavise and apply *hot* vinegar (I use the distilled kind but it really hardly matters) that has been heated to boiling in the microwave with a cotton swab. Add a couple of drops of liquid dish soap to the solution to break the surface tension of the solution and help it wet the entire surface without balling up or forming pools and drops.

The first etch is a setup to find the temper line and I apply the hot solution fairly heavy but not enough that it runs all over the place or onto the other side of the blade. This is where the Panavise comes into play as you can tip the blade so that the solution stays on the surface you are working with and not run or drip. I keep dipping the swab and rubbing the steel until the entire surface gets a little gray and the temper line can be clearly seen.

Remove the gray oxide with Flitz or Simichrome, Pikal or Noxon and then clean it with alcohol to remove the polish. Reheat the blade, reheat the solution, and again clamp the blade but this time only "paint" the area below the temper line with hot solution....keep applying it and scrubbing with a wet swab. After you can find the outline of the temper line only apply solution to the line and the edge of the blade. This will drastically increase the contrast between the hard and soft areas of the blade.

Clean and polish with Flitz, etc. and repeat this process until the line is as bold as you want. This process is tedious but really exploits the temper line in alloy steels like L6, O1, and 5160 (which tend to have simple or less vivid temper/hardening lines) but works well for the plain 10XX steels as well. I use multiple etches with vinegar instead of ferric chloride because the vinegar brings out more of the subtle activities in the temper line than one vicious etch with FC does. I have always gotten more "stuff" to show up with the vinegar and you can dump it down the drain when you are done with it.

Both blades are by Howard Clark in my polish.

Ferric works good for me when etching out the pattern in pattern welded steels but I find it is too drastic for getting the most out of temper lines and hardening lines...if you are using low alloy steels and the line is very simple the ferric works fairly well but the vinegar will give you a frosty silver quality that the ferric misses completely no matter how weak you mix the solution...think of vinegar as coaxing out the line and ferric as blasting out the line and experiment a bit. Use what works best for the steel, polish, and heat treat technique you are using.

Good luck!

Brian

 

[Rick Baum]

Great tutorial Brian! Thanks for the help. I think I will experiment with the vinegar approach and see what happens. One question Brian, will the vinegar treatment etch deep enough to show the grain structure or is it more to show off the temper line? I tried the FC method again last night and I actually ended up with a light temper line showing after I was done. Maybe a combo of both methods? Now all I need is some polishing paste.

Thanks for the help,
Rick

 

[Galloglas]

I have to admit that I don't spend a lot of time on pattern welded steels but the little I have worked with it suggests that vinegar is less than effective at making the different steels stand out. I think that ferric does a better job at emphasizing layers on pattern welded steels.

I primarily use mono steels and am more interested in hyper performance in swords and very large knives...I love the look of pattern welded steels and of hamons and temper lines but am not really all that interested in exploiting them. I use vinegar to show the activities on blades that have them 'cause the vinegar works *for me* and I'm not suggesting that others may not get excellent results from ferric or other acids.

I use what works for me on the steels that I prefer and I am a big proponent of experimenting heavily and finding out what works best for you in each different circumstance.

I don't think it will work using ferric to emphasize the pattern and vinegar to emphasize the temper line.....when you clean off the oxides with the metal polish you will burnish the pattern out of the steel and reduce the contrast between the layers. The whole secret of using the vinegar (for me) lays in the fact that you use multiple, mild etches to pull the lines out and polish the soft steel areas out to a dull sheen or a mirror...this kind of treatment may eliminate the boldness of the layers in pattern welded steels.

Try it and see, I'm curious!

Brian