Etching Stencils – 3D Printing?

KHall

KHall

Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
1,505
So while I was reading LucyCustomeKnives posting about Etching Stencils I was wondering if it would be possible to create high definition stencils using 3D printing.

I don’t know anything about 3D printing. But it seems to me that if you could use the fine mesh fabric used in stencils as the feed stock in a 3D printer, then by printing a negative of the stencils artwork you could create a stencil without the photo process we use now to create stencils.

Any 3D printer people out there – what do you think?

Thanks,
Ken
 
I don't own a printer but I have seen guys make business cards with them so I don't see why it couldn't be done. Check out a site called shapeways oh and there's another forum called the rpf a ton of those guys have printers and most of them are super nice guys.
 
Not a bad idea. A couple points to consider. First is that you would need the "print" to actually adhere to a mesh substrate. Without the mesh to hold it all together, you would lose the inside of letters like "D" and "B" and other inside details on graphics. The other issue is the level of printing detail. There are high definition 3D printers but, most of the affordably priced machines are decidedly "low-def". Technology is moving fast on 3D printers and prices are coming down. It won't be too long before this idea is very feasible but, I think it is still a few years away from being cost effective for the average knifemaker.

Bob
 
When I think about stencils I think laser cut or using a cutting machine on something like vinyl. Think of 3d printing as not one technique but a general term for additive manufacturing. So there are ones that use lasers and metal powder to build up metals, print heads to print plastic and so on. The inexpensive home units tend to use PLA or ABS filament and run it through a heated nozzle then trace out a layer at a time. This produces a porous structure, not sure what you want in a stencil. It also tends to be relatively thick especially if you don't want to worry about getting it off the platen. As it needs to stick to it effectively this is not trivial either.

They are useful and I figure at work we paid for ours in a few weeks as it makes a lot of basic things like fixtures not require man time to machine. You go right from a 3d model to a part.
 
I would think a better solution would be solid ink printers and fine mesh "paper". Solid ink printing basically uses melted crayons to deposit wax-like dye on the paper. Wow, gonna have to do some research on this. Actually some potential on this one.
 
zaph1 said:
I would think a better solution would be solid ink printers and fine mesh "paper". Solid ink printing basically uses melted crayons to deposit wax-like dye on the paper. Wow, gonna have to do some research on this. Actually some potential on this one.
Click to expand...

You can do toner transfer from the right paper, as laser printer toner is thermo melting. This is one way circuit boards are made with home made etching kits. As those are etched in ferric chloride it might be apt for some of this as well.
 
I think everyone is overthinking this:

1) Stencils for knives are not at all like stencils for screen printing or labeling crates. They are for allowing the electrolyte on an electro-etcher to only contact the metal in selected locations, thus directing the flow of ions in a very precise pattern. The stencil material must be insoluble, non hygroscopic, and non-conducting.....entirely different from a ink stencil.
2) The sizes we use for electro-etching stencils is usually far smaller than any screen print mesh material would allow. Details will not reduce that small by most screen print and laser cut stencil methods. A standard 3-D printer would not be nearly hi-def enough, either.
3) High quality etching stencils are availably fast and cheap from the folks who have the equipment to make them. Guys like Ernie KNOW what it takes, and do it well.
4) The cost of making a home made stencil by any of the methods being discussed lately would be many times more than ordering what you want and getting it exactly right.


It never ceases to amaze me how folks are willing to spend $100 and ten hours to do a half-way job themselves instead of a $10 and 10 minute task by a professional.
 
Doesn't hand made knives kind of as a group fit into the category of do it yourself for more money instead of paying a professional to do it? If they are making knives they are apt to do that sort of thing already.
 
bladsmth said:
I think everyone is overthinking this:

1) Stencils for knives are not at all like stencils for screen printing or labeling crates. They are for allowing the electrolyte on an electro-etcher to only contact the metal in selected locations, thus directing the flow of ions in a very precise pattern. The stencil material must be insoluble, non hygroscopic, and non-conducting.....entirely different from a ink stencil.
2) The sizes we use for electro-etching stencils is usually far smaller than any screen print mesh material would allow. Details will not reduce that small by most screen print and laser cut stencil methods. A standard 3-D printer would not be nearly hi-def enough, either.
3) High quality etching stencils are availably fast and cheap from the folks who have the equipment to make them. Guys like Ernie KNOW what it takes, and do it well.
4) The cost of making a home made stencil by any of the methods being discussed lately would be many times more than ordering what you want and getting it exactly right.


It never ceases to amaze me how folks are willing to spend $100 and ten hours to do a half-way job themselves instead of a $10 and 10 minute task by a professional.
Click to expand...


Stacy, I'm usually riding your wave, but have to say on this I am certainly not. IMO, Little areas of our craft like this are where we should encourage experimenting the most. At some point someone has to cough up the dough to try and find the better mousetrap. Is the initial cost high? Maybe, depending... But if the end result is finding a method to do something that can be done at home, approach the quality of an expensive professional stencil to the tune of $20 materials cost, then the cost is certainly justified. Especially when we are talking about limited production of something, or while we are still trying to figure out just what we want to etch on all of our blades.

If we simply sat back and said 'well, that's what everyone else does, so why bother trying something new' then we certainly wouldn't get very far. Screenprinting mesh, or like J tried, chiffon, can be very thin and produce very high detail. If applied properly it is possible to get a halfway decent etch out of it. Emulsions are non-hygroscopic when cured; and all emulsions are insoluble and non-conducting. Hence why I gave it a try. And my $$ layout was more like $30 total and I have more than enough emulsion and mesh to screen-print a whole gaggle of t-shirts if I so choose.

But, of course there are plenty of people out there who wonder why we knife-makers spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on something they can buy at Wal-Mart.

-Eric
 
I know what you are saying, but the reality of the situation on a stencil is not the same as a knife.

Ignoring personal satisfaction, the reason a person makes a knife himself is the satisfaction of producing a product as good as ...or better than....what is available from the common suppliers - even if it costs more.
The reason not to do something would be if the final result was lesser quality than what was commonly available - especially if it cost more.

I understand that people want to build a better mousetrap, but if the mousetrap ends up exactly like the ones from the hardware store, costs twice the price, and won't catch mice well - they are neither a better trap or cheaper.....so the effort was a waste of time.

Now, time is the one thing you need more than anything in knifemaking. Money is usually next. Saving time and money by using a professional service for something as incidental as making a stencil is good stewardship. I would far rather spend $100 and six hours to make a couple $300 knives than to spend it making a $10 stencil.
 
I agree 100% with Stacey.
In the beginning i spent hours and a few dollars(stencil material, developer, light box, transparencies, they all add up) and got what I thought was a reasonable etch.
When that one stencil wore out I tried to create another one, I couldnt get a good image, using the same procedure used to make the first.
Blah blah blah...lets try Erny's stencils. Instant improvement. Havnt touched the DIY stencils since.

You can apply the same DIY argument to many components of knifemaking and a lot of the time it just doesnt make sense.
 
If we have 10 hair-brained ideas like this and if only one of them works, that's a success. If no one tries these wacky ideas out, we'll never know which one might have worked. The method of using laser toner and magazine paper to make an iron-on stencil was originally one of those crazy ideas. Now, we know that it works if you have the right paper and toner. That's still the best method for one off etching fine detail without ordering/making a silk stencil.

It's true, a 3D printer is nowhere near fine enough for printing stencils. Most people don't realize that the cheap 3D printers use melted weed-wacker line.
 
FTO_dude said:
YouTube can apply the same DIY argument to many components of knifemaking and a lot of the time it just doesnt make sense.
Click to expand...

Maybe. But I got into doing this because I wanted to learn to do for myself. Same reason I have been doing basically anything I've done in the shop for the last 20 years... I don't have anyone waterjet my blanks, make my damascus, make my sheaths or heat treat my blanks, and at some point I'm sure I could have used that same argument with each of those processes....


-Eric
 
LucyCustomKnives said:
I don't have anyone waterjet my blanks, make my damascus, make my sheaths or heat treat my blanks
Click to expand...

But did you make your own bandsaw? Smelt your own steel? Shoot your own cows, tan your own leather? Make your own oven with your own bricks?
Now you seem like a renaissance man so you've probably done some of that, but you dont habitually do so down to every last minutiae.
 
FTO_dude said:
But did you make your own bandsaw? Smelt your own steel? Shoot your own cows, tan your own leather? Make your own oven with your own bricks?
Now you seem like a renaissance man so you've probably done some of that, but you dont habitually do so down to every last minutiae.
Click to expand...

Not what I'm getting at honestly... I was worried it may come off that way. I see this hobby as an excercise in one's level of interest, balanced by one's comfort, skill, means, and talent... What I mean is, I personally don't send out to HT. I have no issue with those that do, and encourage it for those improperly equipped or not comfortable with the risk, etc etc. I don't have my blanks waterjet cut, not because I see any inherent evil in doing so, but for one, I rarely make more than a couple of the same thing, and two, I have the ability to cut them out quick enough here in the shop. I have my fair share of hacksaw time so definitely don't discourage the waterjet for those who choose or need to do so. Heck, I've even supplied blanks and 80% of the way finished scales to one maker who didn't have the time, money, or equipment to do so on his own but has a deep interest in what we do...

For me, I prefer to fiddle with the minutiae. A knife is one of man's oldest tools. And our anatomy hasn't changed much in a few millennia. So nobody is going to change the overall final package... It's going tobe a hand held sharp object. However, I have worked in the raw with period tools and can see where technology has vastly changed the way we get to the final package. For instance, it is now not only conceivable but actually fairly inexpensive for someone to have a complete CAD/CAM CNC machining set-up in their personal shop. So for me to say 'well so-and-so already does it better so just pay them' when these questions of DIY and different technology arise would be quite myopic.

The questions asked here are often asked by those who have had a taste of something new and are asking those who are hopefully more well versed the timeless question 'What if?' I hate to sound cliche, but if Orville and Wilbur had stuck to riding bicycles....

Cheers.
-Eric
 
Using myself as an example;
Some people just have to re-invent the wheel or at least figure out how to make one.
With myself I usually figure out all the wrong ways to do something first.
When I finally have everything figured out, then I have a greater appreciation for the professionals.
Understanding what is involved helps me to justify spending the money to have the professionals do it right.
 
I'm not sure why anyone cares how we spend our own time or money but I already owned all of the screenprinting stuff. I used about 50 cents worth of materials and 15 minutes of my time. If I can get a decent etch from my effort and not have to spend 60 dollars for a sheet of stencils and two weeks waiting for them to arrive, then I'm pretty sure I'm ahead on both time and money plus it may be able to help a fellow knife maker. And if it doesn't work, then only my time and pennies were wasted, and everyone can go back to paying 60 dollars for a 4 dollar stencil sheet.
 
Nothing wrong with wanting to play with new technology when it comes out. I will say, however, I don't think most people really understand how 3D printers, like Makerbot, really work. This ain't your daddy's inkjet printer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top