ethical ways to copy a design?

T

T. J.

Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
228
Ok, here is a multiple choice question for you guys. While browsing a fellow makers page you run across a knife design you really like and decide you want one. Do you A) order one, wait two years. B) turn off computer, freehand something similar with a few "improvements", go make one. C) print the page, copy exactly. D) Email and ask permission to knock off the design for personal use, then copy. E) smack forhead with palm, say "darn, I should have thought of that", go make something else?

[This message has been edited by T. J. (edited 26 August 1999).]
 
E - I hope.
If you like it too much, it might end up being an unintended B. Unless it's something totally new, there will always be knifes out there which look very much the same.
 
Well, for what it's worth, I think none of these is 'wrong,' unless you're going to sell that knife to someone. Then, legally and without moral question, I think the option to photocopy and exactly reproduce the knife is soooooooo very wrong. And, rest assured, someday, somehow, somewhere, it'll come back to bite'cha...

But, as long as you're making it for yourself, I don't see an issue. Anyone find a flaw in the logic that I've missed? Anybody? Bueller?



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It's the SUSPENSE that kills me! --Bugs Bunny
 
I went through a similar dilemma not too long ago. I spotted a tiny picture in Knives Illustrated about the Bob Lum Chinese Utility Folder. I immediately fell in love with the pattern, which is an old Mandarin pattern, according to Lum himself. Knowing there was no way in hell I could afford one, I decided I'd see if I could find someone to make something similar, but to further modify the design, I wanted a fixed blade. I approached Madpoet Custom Knives with the design, and Mel suggested a few changes, and said he liked what we had come up with, then i emailed Sal Glesser at Spyderco, who is planning the production version of the folder, and he said to go for it. I did, and the result is this:
<center><img src = "http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/ltutil.jpg"></center>

It retains the basic idea of the original, but it is different enough that I wouldn't consider it a knock-off. Plus, how can you "knock-off" a traditional pattern? That's be like saying all Bowie makers are knock off artists.

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My Custom Kydex Sheath pagehttp://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels


[This message has been edited by Chiro75 (edited 26 August 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Chiro75 (edited 26 August 1999).]
 
Knives have been around for so long it is almost impossible to avoid having an knife look like something that has been done before. All anyone can do is avoid deliberatly copying someone else.

Classic designs should be attributed when possible. There is nothing wrong with a copy of 18th or 19th century Sheffield patterns or design features as long as the historical connection is noted.




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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
Sometimes you'll see two knives where two good makers did "similar thinking and got slightly similar results" but it isn't copying at all. The Larry Harley Battle Dagger and the Mad Dog Shrike series are classic examples, they're both "asymetrical daggers with advanced grip designs that work well in the Saber grip" but there was no copying.

My Outsider and the Ryan Biohazard have some similarities, all totally accidental. I did deliberately copy a few concepts off of the Szabo Jaws4, esp. the upper guard thrown out over the blade's spine and the fact that both are "forward hook" types. But the double tip, size, heft, overall shape and other stuff is nothing like any Szabo. I don't feel I crossed any ethical lines, even if Harald and I end up marketing the design.

I think just scaling a design up or down isn't enough to call it yours, but make enough *functional* changes in addition to cosmetic and you're OK.

Jim March
 
Hey Chiro,

Ever compare that knife to a Jen Anso reverse drop point?
smile.gif


I think this sort of thing is going to get harder and harder to avoid as the years wear on. I just posted in the Camillus forum about the new Bob Terzoula(?)..fixed blade looks alot like a BlackJack Blackmoor 2000(the BobT is better though).

Any way you cut it, alot of knives are going to look similar because there are only so many purposes for which they are intended.

As far as copying a custm maker's design for yourself, or at least his "traits", I think that it could be good practice to learn how different things are done, and to see if certain methods or styles appeal to you. Alan Folts is pretty happy with a knife he made that is based on a Jose DeBraga(?) design. It looks pretty sweet.

.....(mushy philosophical stuff deleted for the sake of everyone's sanity).....

YeK

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It is not a matter of whether or not you are paranoid, it is a matter of whether or not you are paranoid enough.

AKTI # A000348
 
Good call, Yekim! I LOVE Anso's stuff. Just to let you know the level Jens works at, I showed a picture of that little "troll" knife on his first page and she thought it was great! This coming from the knife antichrist!
wink.gif
Anyway, that is quite similar, and just goes to show how good ideas are almost universal. For example, Mayans and Egyptians both building pyramids without ever having been in contact with each other! Aliens aside, people must be wired enough the same that certain synapses are going to trigger certain ideas that are not limited by cultural, geographic, or even time lines. Anyway, food for thought.
smile.gif


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My Custom Kydex Sheath pagehttp://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
 
Back in '79, I spent a day will Fred Carter.
He noticed I was admiring some of his patterns, and he told me something I will never forget. He said “A.T., you can
copy anything in my shop, ..except my name”

What a class act!

A.T.
 
Take a look-see thru any of Ken Warner's Knives 19XX annuals, and count how many makers emulate models by Loveless, Morseth, Sheffield, Price, et.al, but with their own little twists.

I won't deliberatlely go out and copy another maker's design exactly, but there are little bits and pieces of many that I will incorporate into a blade, along with more than a few of my own.

Just mi dos centavos,
Harry Jensen

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Please feel free to visit my page, & give me any comments or questions you have regarding my knives.
It's at-
http://www.mrcalifornia.com/~hjensen
 
There's being inspired by a design and taking it as a starting point for your own work. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

Then there's blatently ripping off the work of someone else - right down to the details - with the purpose of stealing their efforts to make a profit: that is total crap in my book and I would never buy one nor buy anything from a company who puts out stuff like that.

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www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Mister Wilkins makes an excellent point, as most, if not all who make knives have been influenced by the designs of other makers at a point during their journey, and have either cousciously or un- consciously emulated them to some degree..However, with fixed blades, there are only so many ways the lines will curve and still be a "workable" knife. Art knives is another story.
IMHO, it would take more time and trouble to try and copy another maker's design, than for someone to come up with a design of their own, UNLESS they were intentionally out to defraud the buyer (understand this is occurring with Bob Loveless' knives at the moment). THOSE people should be escorted to a "prayer meetin" in short order.

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Please feel free to visit my page, & give me any comments or questions you have regarding my knives.
It's at-
http://www.mrcalifornia.com/~hjensen
 
At the risk of seeming like a whinner ,I have to say it's no fun going to a show and competing with yourself.
Seems my opinion is an unpopular one.I see my speed safe mechanism at every show I attend manufactured by at least a half a doz Makers and it pisses me off especialy cause it cost several thousand dollars for a patent and a lot of work . and these @#$@%get a free ride with no cost.I have to compete with that ?
It's dirty !!! What kind of character does a guy like that have? Not much!
With reguard to a design (pattern), we all have certain similarities However my opinion is the same It's wrong to copy a fellow knifemakers Knife patterns and encroach on his sales deliberatly and with fore thought ( I'm refering to an identical or very close copy . We, I work very hard to be as original as possable and it's unnerving to see freeloaders put an ugly face on this industry.
Just venting guys , You just hit a pet pieve at just the right time as i'm in the middle of a situation along these same lines.

Aloha!!!Ken
 
Ken,

if you see a copy of your patented mechanism, get one of the knives and give it to you attorney and "SUE THE BASTARDS" as the man said.

Or is that an overly simplistic solution?

But if you don't have legal regress in such cases, then what's the point in even getting a patent?

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www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Your right Kevin, I'm sure thats what it will take. I've avoided doing that because these guys are fellow knifemakers . Suposed friends, In the end I'll seem like the a-hole it's just unfortunate that these guys are forcing me to take these actions . I would much prefer a cup of coffee and a friendly mono-e-mono conversation.It's ironic they actualy think I don't know .
Any similar experiences out there?

Aloha!!
 
Ken,

Out of curiosity, what do you think of makers that liked the idea of your speed-safe mechanism so much that they went and made a knife that works similarly, but with totally different mechanics?

YeK
 
I can see where you'd have that problem more than most, Ken. You do have some pretty cool stuff out there. In the ones that I've seen that have copied you, I think you do have a case. As was mentioned previously, being inspired by a good knife is one thing, outright taking their design and claiming it as your own work is another entirely. Fellow knifemakers, true, but that doesn't give them the right.
 
Would a clear disclosure of influential designs affect this?

I'd have to give someone who included a list of the elements they appreciated from other designs points for honesty at the least.
 
Yekim,
That would be kinda difficult .My patent has several mechanical means by which to come out with the same result. I tried to patent the way it opens and the safety features reguardless of mechanical means used to achieve this.
Hope this helps
Aloha and thanks for all the support !!! Ken
 
Ken;
If someone really wanted to make one of your speedsafe knives for personal use, and contacted you beforehand, would you sell them a one off or small run license? I understand a fee and a patent reference is the usual way to obtain rights to copy a patented design. What would you consider a fair fee for this?
James Skeen?
 
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