Ethnic Knives from Remote Western China

Mark--thanks for the link. Those are very intersting. I always enjoy looking at traditional knives from different cultures.
--Josh
 
Very cool! :cool:

If you had asked me to guess where these came from, I would have said the sheath for the fixed blade looked Scandinavian, and the handle decorations looked Russian. :footinmou

Amazing how similar styles develop independently. :) Thanks for sharing, Mark!
 
Incredible. Having spent many years studying various Chinese boxing styles, I love topics like this.

There are two problems I've found with researching fighting knives in antiquated China:
1. Knives were not considered honorable weapons in most cases, so little documentation exists (paintings, etc)
2. Knives that were carried were generally used up, and I am not aware of any intact specimens that exist at all.

Few forms exist emphasizing daggers (although there are some), but in modern times, this is one of the more realisitic weapons forms to study.

Personally, I'd love to know if anyone has information on daggers or knows of anyone that makes historically-accurate reproductions.

One of these days, I'll try some knifemaking on my own and create one based on what information exists out there...

--Rip
 
MacHete said:
Very cool! :cool:

If you had asked me to guess where these came from, I would have said the sheath for the fixed blade looked Scandinavian, and the handle decorations looked Russian. :footinmou

Amazing how similar styles develop independently. :) Thanks for sharing, Mark!
Click to expand...

The development may not be independent.

Many of the traditional Scandanavian blade shapes are similar to those of some Russian knives, and then there are things like this:

http://silk-road.com/artl/22797.shtml

...Dr. Kamberi began by giving the audience a brief background of his education and work in this area. Kamberi has worked for more than 10 years in China pursuing Bronze and Iron Age art and culture of the Xinjiang region. The inspiration for his work has come from his desire to search for the history of his native Uighur culture.

For his talk, Kamberi began by showing maps of the Xinjiang region and outlined the sites of all of his archeological digs. Xinjiang is today known as the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region of the Peopleís Republic of China, one of six territorial regions of China. In the past, however, it has been known by a variety of different names such as Inner Asia, Chinese Turkestan, East Turkestan, Uighurstan, many of which conjure up images of the silk road. On the south, Xinjiang is bordered by Tibet, to the north and west is Russia, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tadjikistan and Afghanistan. The region possesses an historical culture and history all its own, as proven by the remarkable discoveries made by Kamberi and his colleagues in ancient cemeteries.

Throughout its history, Xinjiang has been the meeting ground for the civilizations of the east and west; Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity were all practiced in the region; Indo-Iranian languages, and Greek, Ural-Altaic, Tibetan, were all spoken here...

...Kamberi described the location of Cherchan, where his world-famous discovery of beautifully-preserved Caucasian mummies took place....

...Cherchen Man was discovered near the small town of Zogholuk which is mostly populated by Uighurs. The cemetery near this village measures one kilometer from north to south and 750 meters from east to west, and contains approximately 800 known tombs....

...The Cherchen Man continues to remain a fascinating figure. The slides of the body were absolutely incredible, showing, as Kamberi said, a man that looked as if he could have died very recently. The body is extremely tall, even by todayís standards, at 2 meters (over six feet). The body was clothed in a complete set of garments made of felt and he wore knee-high deerskin boots with colorful socks. His beard and thinning dark blonde hair were plainly visible. Cherchen Man possesses definite Caucasoid features, and his temple is adorned with a decorative painted red motif in the form of a sun (a round circle surrounded by rays). This could be another sign that these people worshipped the sun god. Spoons were found in the graves with a similar paint on them, which suggests that the facial paint was applied after death. Cherchen Manís hands were covered with black tattoos and Kamberi postured that they could be some from of ancient script. In addition, small wooden rods with the ends bound in red wool yarn were found in the tomb. This may have also been a fire symbol, and may indicate that the ancient religion of the Cherchen people was related to Zoroastrianism.

Similarly, the Charchan Lady was a remarkable find. She is also extremely tall - 1.96 meters. She was wearing tall boots, and wore garments of a designed woolen fabric. After the body and cloth were cleaned, the brilliant red of the dress shown through despite having been underground for almost 3,000 years. In addition, one tomb unearthed a baby, probably 3-4 months old, which was perfectly preserved wrapped in its colorful blankets. Small black stones were placed over his eyes at the time of burial. ...

Or this:

http://www.archaeology.org/9609/newsbriefs/tarim.html

...Study of garments worn by 3,000-year-old mummies excavated in western China's Tarim Basin (see ARCHAEOLOGY, March/April 1995) has yielded the world's oldest cashmere threads. Other mummies wore wool twills woven in a plaid design dating to 720 B.C. that required looms most likely brought by settlers from the Eurasian steppes.

Irene Good of the University of Pennsylvania and Elizabeth J.W. Barber of Occidental College examined textile samples from two sites, Chärchän and Hami, where mummies have been excavated since the late 1970s by Chinese and Uighur scholars. Good identified the cashmere threads from Chärchän by their shape, fineness, and consistency of diameter. "The Chärchän textiles indicate a high degree of skill in sorting and spinning fibers," she says. "The presence of cashmere shows a very sophisticated breeding of goats for the fleece."

The plaid twill was dyed blue and derived from a hairy, rather than woolly, fleece. Barber says there is no evidence that the Chinese ever made wool twills on their looms, which were designed for silk, and that wool-weaving technology arrived with the western settlers of the Tarim Basin ca. 1800 B.C.

A couple of shows have aired on PBS about these finds (which is where I first heard of them), here's a transcript of one:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~wayfarer/anomaly/archaeology/urumchi_trans.htm

But be aware that it seems that just about everyone writing or working in this vein seems to have their own agenda (ranging from contentions that such "barbarians" could have had no influence on the neighboring Chinese culture to contentions that these "Aryans" brought with them esential technologies (which is great fodder for white supremacists) Of course this makes it a fertile area for obfusticating "politcal correctness" hand-wringing as well. :

http://www.utoledo.edu/~nlight/uyghhst.htm

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~litrev/reviews/1999/02/MUMMIES.html

Seems that everyone wants to claim these mummies as ancestors--this exchange was surprising to me (but I'm no historian or archaeologist)

http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=37518&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

I think that some of the old people traveled a lot more than is realized, but I don't know if we will ever know for sure. Humans can politicize anything.

Where's Beo?
 
"ancient religion of the Cherchen people was related to Zoroastrianism."

Most likely, Mithraism, another Sun god religion. Gained a following in Rome in later years (0-300CE). The most ancient of religious beliefs usually follow the "Earth Mother, Sky Father" model, and Rome had a goddess of the earth and hearth called Vesta. Attendants that kindled the fire in the hearth (basically a sacred eternal flame thingy at the center of the Forum) were young girls, hence the term "Vestal Virgin."



"looked Scandinavian,... looked Russian. "

Well, there is a cultural link between Russia and Scandinavia. Back in the 800CEs, the Baltic region was sorely underdeveloped, an big expanse of steppes and forests, etc. The Baltic folk asked the Swedes to assist them with their country's state of affairs. Well, The Swedes were enterprising folks, and traded wide and far across many regions and continents. To them, the Baltic looked like a great place to develop into a network of trade routes, crossroads linking the med to Asia, Europe, etc.. (The city of Novgorod in particular grew around a Swedish viking-founded trade town.)
The Swedish vikings are what the local baltic folk called "Rus." Thus, Russia is named after the Swedes who helped them set up shop.

Keith
 
Actually, folks, a very good source on these people and their times is EMPIRE OF THE STEPPES, an out-of-print work by Rene Grousset.

Dr. Grousset was not able to write much about the Aryans, as they were illiterate at the time of their conquests, but the history of other conquerors and notables in the Xinjiang region makes for gripping stories.

One such was Pan Cha'o, a Han general who was possible the best military mind of his time. His military and diplomatic skills deprived the Huns of any assistance from these Xinjiang towns. (about 70 A.D.) Also mentioned were the Mongols of the House of Jenghiz, Tamerlane, and the later Buddhist Mongols not of the line of Jenghiz, such as the Oirats. Even later in history Muslims lived alongside pagans Mongols, as in earlier times the brilliant Kuchean culture was literally a couple of day's ride from the most warlike of horse barbarians.

All of these added to the history and culture of these parts.

Even the Russians were there in later centuries: the book tells of a Russian army (1720) being driven off by Galdan Tsereng and 20,000 Dzungar fighters, although the latter had only bows and arrows, and the Russians firearms.

The biggest flowerings of culture in this area were in around 600 C.E. when the region was profoundly influenced by India, and later, in the 16th Century under Islam.

In the first era the town of Kuqa ("koo-sha") was known for its hospitality and dancing girls, as well as a high level of culture. The T'ang regime of Emperor T'ai Tsung demanded and got homage from these towns. For the most part they were left alone.

This ended when King Hari Pushpa (Divine Flower) got into a very ill-advised rebellion against China. The town of Kuqa's army got wiped out fighting the Chinese, and their noble class apparantly got wiped out too, ending their era of greatness.

A century later, at the Battle of the Talas River in 751, the Chinese army of these parts was defeated by the Muslims. China, also beset by Tibetan attacks and the rebellion of a Mongol mercenary named An Lu-Shan, lost Central Asia for a thousand years.

Later on, after Tamerlane's empire had faded away, the area saw a great flowering of Muslim culture. This in turn faded away in the 18th Century, when China came back to reclaim these lands.

As Grousett said of Xingiang, "...this land, in which the Chinese have stifled national characteristics and qualities, which they have jealously closed...."

Chris
 
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