Evaluation and Management of Predator Risk

[Howard Wallace]

There was another interesting thread on Outdoor Handgun Caliber Choice started by Hazardous. It seems that this question should not be considered in isolation. Thought should be given to the area to be entered, the predator populations in the area, and the hunting pressure on the predators. In some areas with high bear populations and light hunting pressure the weight of a shotgun with rifled slugs, or a large caliber rifle, may be well worth the discomfort and limitations the extra weight imposes. In other areas the risk may be negligible, or only from human predators. In these cases it probably isn't necessary to go around "loaded for bear."

I can't help but think it a mistake to try to be equally prepared at all times. Especially if that attempt leads to carrying marginally adequate means for protection in truly dangerous areas. After packing around something heavy for some time, with seemingly no necessity for its use, the natural tendency is to consider dropping it, or downgrading to something lighter.

I suspect that the adequate defensive measures vary with type of predator, even among species of bear. I have no experience in this area. My two bear encounters have both been when I was unarmed. (and much younger.)

I would like to hear the views of the forumites on these questions:

How does one accurately evaluate the predator danger in a region?

What level of risk should trigger the carry of defensive measures?

What measures are sufficient against various predators? Consider dogs, cougars, wolves, alligator, black, grizzly, kodiak, and polar bears. You may think of others to consider also.


[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 02-08-2000).]

 

[MichLee]

Ok, I will try and answer with my reasoning

“How does one accurately evaluate the predator danger in a region? “

I think this could be broken down into several areas, the first is if a species of animal is native (or living in suffiecent numbers if transported) in the area in which you will be exposed to the possibility of an encounter. Now with the problem of dogs dropped off and running in packs this is possible in most areas of the country. In my case I would put the predator species to be:

1. wolf (in the U.P. where I hunt often) but not in large numbers.

2. Black bear (from approximately mid state up) in fairly large numbers.

3. The cat family of which even the smaller non-house variety has been upon rare occasion known to attack a human, especially when they are attacking movements or coming to a predator call and the human is camouflaged.

4. Wild dog(s)

Now in these cases the possibility exists where I might encounter one of the above, but in most cases the aforementioned animal is more likely to avoid any encounter to the best of it ability. The one probable exception being the dog pack that has lost its fear of man due to close contact. Therefore unless I am engaged in an occupation that will increase the risk of contact I would place my risk as low.

High risk activities could include cleaning a downed deer or some such thing that attracts the predator to the specfic location, engaging in predator hunting using calls intended to lure predator species to “wounded animals” or over bait piles, also tracking a wounded predator. Another high risk would be operating where a large pack of wild dogs is known to be in operation.

“What level of risk should trigger the carry of defensive measures?”

I would say that unless I was engaged in a high risk activity the inclusion of a small caliber weapon, pepper spray, or something like the Cold Steel Etool would provide a measure safety equal to most situations, of course there are exceptions as always.

When engaged in a high risk activity some other considerations have to be taken into consideration. My main hunting activity is archery, seconded by black powder and handgun hunting.

In archery season in Michigan a firearm is a definite no-no, liable to end up by you being jailed, or losing your hunting privileges for an extended period of time, along with sizable fines. So therefore I am limited to my archery equipment, pepper sprays, and edged weapons.

In black powder only season I am limited to archery tackle (archery and black powder go concurrently) black powder rifles and pistols, pepper sprays and edged weapons.

In Rifle deer season Shotguns, rifles and pistols are permitted. During non-hunting seasons I may carry other arms as long as they are not concealed and am not in a place that does not permit them.

After all this, I have only once encountered a situation (with an animal) in which I felt I was in true jeopardy, in over 30 plus years in the outdoors. This one encounter was when my brother in-law responded to a barking dog, this was just after an occasion where a hunter had died in the woods and his dog alerted hunters to his body. We were quickly encircled by a pack of dogs that were protecting a deer kill. We worked out away out back to back with our .44 mag handguns readied, but I can honestly say I was sweating until we got out. Later we came back with more people and armed with shotguns and buckshot, I cannot say due to legalities (stupid law that says you cannot kill dogs in the wild) but they stopped being a menace shortly after this encounter for whatever reason.

I hope this was not overly long and appologize for it.

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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde

[This message has been edited by MichLee (edited 02-08-2000).]

 

[Shrike9]

Here in Wyoming where we've had a unreasonably warm winter when we go out playing I take the 44 mag along with the 12 ga loaded with 00 buck and slugs.

We had a Black Bear come into the outer edge of camp last fall. While it's the first time this has happened even taking all kinds of precautions it could happen again.

Otherwise when out and about I normally carry a Colt 1911 45ACP loaded with 230 gr Hydra Shoks and the wife has a 9mm loaded with 124gr +P+. The 45 should handle everything from wild dogs to the mountain lions that have been spoted in our 4 wheeling areas.

In all actuality I'm more afraid some human pond scum might be stupid enough to force an encounter than wild animals. You would be suprized at the pond scum you come across when 4 wheeling.

[This message has been edited by Shrike9 (edited 02-08-2000).]

 

[JHall]

Here is my thinking. The chance of an attack from a wild animal is greatest in areas where there is the most human activity. Especially "city" type humans with little or no outdoor skills or knowledge. For example, the only location in the country that really has regular and serious difficulty with the bear population is Yosimite Nat'l, and this is due to incredible stupidity by humans over long periods of time. In most areas as long as you take the proper precautions with food, cooking, etc. wild animals will spend much more time trying to avoid you than they will seeking you out. This goes beyond things that we normally consider. For instance, it is proven that the scent of even a small tube of toothpaste can attract the attention of bears. So I would say, spend more time double checking to make sure that EVERYTHING you are carrying that could possibly attract a predator is hung safely well away from your camp and you cook and do dishes IMHO at least 100 yds away. Use common sense. If you come across bear tracks that look to be a mother and cub, go the other way. Fast. Momma bear is no longer practicing avoidance if she thinks you are a threat to her baby. If you make sure that you are aware what predators you may encounter in a given area, and you know what precautions you should take to avoid them, the only weapon you should ever need is sitting squarely on your shoulders! The only real exception that I see to this is one that MichLee mentioned, and that is when you are hunting and are tracking or dressing a freshly killed animal in an area with fairly large numbers of predators. In this case, however, you will already have with you whatever weapon you used to kill that animal. Just make sure that it is loaded, and you are alert. Sorry for the length, but there is just so much to say and such a lack of understanding on this subject.

 

[Plainsman]

I would say that there is more danger from "humans" than an animal in most cases. The exception is when you and the animal come into CLOSE PROXIMITY UNEXPECTED.

This means running into momma bear and cubs in a thicket, or rounding a bend and walking into a MOOSE!

Most of the time you should be able to detect the animal or the animal you. Then there is room for one to give way. BY ALL MEANS, if you see them first, GIVE WAY!

Wild dogs and other unusual circumstances also lead to exceptions.

Therefore, have a firearm that can respectfully handle the situation. This usually means something MORE than a handgun, if you encounter a LARGE bear. But that doesn't mean you are limited to ONE item either. THis bear spray has piqued my interest...

I say be ready for as much as possible with one or two defensive measures. Then get GOOD with their use!!

Good luck!


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Plainsman
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise!

 

[Jimbo]

Hi Howard - thanks for bringing things together.

Risk assessment is a tough subject - even in a place like this full of big wild critturs. It really depends exactly where you are, and when.
In the fall our forests are full of mushroom pickers, many of whom carry no protection. There are very few attacks because the mature forest where pine mushrooms are picked have no food for bears. At the very same time fishing the creeks for salmon will bring lots of bear encounters.
There are also the personal factors:
Fishing is the scenario where I say that I would chance it with pepper spray if alone, but would carry a .375 if with kids. The reasoning here is that bears really don't frighten me. Strange but I've stood down false charges. Fear will trigger a real attack and if the bear goes after the kids, I'd want to drop it not chase kids and bear with a can. Frightened people run - always.
There is the psychology of the animal involved:
I've been close to many bears and I wonder if there is any bear generality that is not broken regularly. Same with moose. I have trouble with the concept of bears hunting people, yet we had an incident years ago where a bear attacked a worker on a running machine, killed him and didn't want to give up what was left to the rescue party - this in total wilderness. We had a lot of moose killed while charging locomotives during the rut - but only in one area - why?

Not too much help... but that's all I know even after so many years.

Jimbo

 

[Rex]

In this part of the country the human threat is very real. Lots of weekend partying and city people out in the state parks etc. acting out.
as far as nature rabid animals are a very real possibilty. A year ago a horse was found to have rabies,this was about 20 miles from my home. Pa. has had a lot of rabid racoons etc. the last few years.
Finally the last thing (but very commom)are the little guys. bees,wasps yellowjackets etc.A sting or two is no big deal but many people are allergic and can and do go into shock,resperatory failure or die.
I know of 3 people in the last 2 years who have had life threatinig reactions to stings .
One was a farmer mowing hay who ran over a yellowjacket nest,the other two were cutting theit lawns when stung.The farmer knew he was introuble and drove into the neighbors drive about 200 yds away and went to the emergency room . Serious but not severe.

one of the homeowners did not know he was allergic and laid down on his couch,short of breath etc. His wife called 911 when she saw him not breathing! He survived due to a fast response and good medical care.
Sometimes its the little things that get you killed.

 

[Barry L. Schuchart]

If you are planning an outing, a little prior intell about recent problems in the area might be helpful. Check with a Fish & Wildlife Service, Park Service, Sheriff or local Police.

 

[squatch]

Rabid animals are near the top of my list of possible encounters. Every summer we have numerous cases of rabid animal cases. I was talking to a guy at my gun club one day and noticed he carried a 2 inch S&W .357 on his hip but didn't shoot it while running thru 5 other handguns. I asked him about it and he told me that the previous month he had been right at this range with some other shooters. After about an hour and 1/2 of heavy shooting everyone was out of ammo. Suddenly someone noticed a BIG raccoon come from down range wobbling and growling and looking sick. He was the only one with a loaded weapon (the little .357) and finally had to kill it at about 6 feet with a 158 grain Federal Hydra shok. This on a very noisy gun range! It was diffinitely rabid.

John

 

[Leef]

I have camped for as much as six weeks straight a dozen times and have been out alone for a week at a time quite a bit also. So this isn't the first time I've thought about this subject. Its on those week long solo's that you think about this type of question the most. My experience is in the Southeast both in the coastal low country and the Blue Ridge areas so I know nothing about grizzlies, wolverines, wolves, or polar bears.

There are two really different situations that I've been in. First in the backcountry away from roads, trails, and campgrounds. Second in established campgrounds (no matter how primitive), on popular trails (AT for example), and anywhere near humans in general.

While in true backcountry I have never felt the need to be armed against any type of animal. I have gotten up in the morning to find bear tracks in a complete circle around my tent or lean to, but not had trouble with them. I have also never seen wild dogs miles away from farms or roads. Alligators will swim beside your canoe for hundreds of feet but only seem curious. The only reason I am armed in the backcountry is because of my fellow human beings and even then I find that the harder the hike is and the more difficult the place is to reach the less likely I'll meet anyone there "that just needs shootin" Usually I'll carry a compact 9mm or light 38 Special.

Now the second situation is very, very different. Sometimes before taking off for the backcountry I'll drive to the area and overnight in a established campground or camp near a road to fish a certain section of river. The bears and racoons in these areas look at people as a reliable source for food.
Wild dogs abound in these areas. People dump off unwanted pets and after three or four weeks of hunger you have yourself a wild dog.
Party crowds love these places too. I wouldn't think of being in these areas without being well armed. I have had to dispatch feral animals that couldn't be chased off. I still think a good large caliber pistol with several spare magazines is fine most of the time. Only if you are in an area that is known for wild dog populations or a particular problem bear do I think a long arm is necessary. This long arm should be a shotgun. Late at night when it is the darkest is when you are most likely to need this tool and that is when the shotgun has the biggest advantage over the rifle. Seldom can I convince my targets to stand still under a light when I shoot them! You could probably hit them with a repeating rifle after a few shots, but do you really want to shoot multiple times and draw lots of attention?

Gents I realize this post applies only to my area and would probably make you bear food in some others. I wish we still had grizzly and wolf around here.

 

[Jimbo]

Good point from Rex. Those bugs will cause you extreme trouble. Sometimes the mountains here are full of wasps nests during the warmer summers.

 

[Matt Shade]

I'd say that a large caliber hand gun would be enough in most cases. I don't know what it takes to drop a bear, but I have trouble seeing one survive having a .44mag unloaded into his head. As for moose,and things like that it shouldn't take much to drop one if you shoot it right. I have horses and read in a vet book the procedures for putting one down in the case of a broken leg or extreme health problems. It said that a small hand gun (.22 or.25) was sufficient. They held the gun within an arms length of the animal and shot it in the center of the forehead to hit its brain. According to the article the horse hits the ground immediately. I know longer ranges call for more power, and a moose has a thicker skull than a horse. But I bet it can be done.
Another thing to think about is remington makes a big centerfire pistol. It's not as bulky as a rifle, but packs alot of power and accuracy.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !

 

[Hoodoo]

Originally posted by Matt Shade:
I'd say that a large caliber hand gun would be enough in most cases. I don't know what it takes to drop a bear, but I have trouble seeing one survive having a .44mag unloaded into his head.

Believe it. I once worked for a guy who was a guide in Alaska. On one hunting trip, they dug enough lead out of a kodiak they shot to fill a coffee cup. It was all they could do to stop the bear and if they had not been positioned on a cliff, the bear probably would have nailed their butt. They were shooting 300 Weatherbys.

Or more interesting, read the journals of Lewis and Clark. Some of those grizzly bears they shot as many as 8 times to kill. I doubt that the 44 mag is more powerful than those muzzleloaders. A 44 mag is not even as powerful as a wimpy 30-30 rifle and the 30-30 is not considered a good bear gun.

Good luck on that perfect head shot.

I read an article about a guy in Michigan who shot a humungous black bear 6 times in the head with a 38 (no doubt a wimpy caliber) and none of the bullets penetrated the skull.

I'd say you would be lucky to bring down a charging grizzly or brown bear with a 44 mag in most cases. Unless you have nerves of steel and you are a damned good shot. You are better off climbing a tree.

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Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu