Ever had a sword break?

scotjute · Apr 23, 2002

Was just looking at one that were about 30-33"
long, 2" wide, and about 5/32" thick, and supposedly
of spring steel. That seems a bit thin for a sword,
but suppose it would hold up if you treat it like a
machete, no lateral stresses on the blade.

If you've ever actually had a sword/machete/dagger
break, I'd like to hear about it. Describe the
action/force that broke it, where it broke, and give
a description of the sword.

Thanks.

Ken Cook · Apr 24, 2002

I suspect the only people that don't break swords are the people that don't really use them. Few things are subjected to the torque and stresses that are exerted on a sword blade when it's being used according to it's design.

I've actually lost count of how many swords I've either broken or seen broken in use.

In Rapier Duelling, so as to avoid prosecution and to keep from having to enlist new duelling partners every week, we blunt our blades.

This means that the edge is carefully knocked off with a file or grinding wheel and the tip is rounded off enough that we do not run our friends through like a pig on a spit. (No, No! Mustn't gut your little friends, Billy!)

Also, regardless of the quality of the steel and tempering, a blade is going to take nicks any time there's serious blade on blade contact. These nicks and gouges in the steel create razor sharp burrs, which must be removed before the next duel, otherwise it can easily slice your opponent open just as easily as a fully sharpened blade.

This means that every time you fight, and then dress your blade, the blade gets a little thinner. It's a very slow process of destruction.

In our group, the best swords only last a couple of years, the cheapos last a few months. We're very hard on blades.

Breaking your opponent's blade is always a very interesting thing in a duel. Of course we don't try to do it. A broken sword can sometimes place a bit of financial hardship on the owner and it can lead to some very strong feelings of ill will if the owner is under the impression that you did it on purpose.

Nonetheless, when you strike that blade, and half of it falls to the ground with a ringing clatter, your opponent is standing there basically disarmed and surprised...

But it's still a pretty cool feeling!

Obviously, for safety reasons, when a blade is broken during a duel, the fighting stops immediately and the owner if the broken blade is declared as having "Lost" the duel. This reflects reality, you're not going to win with half a blade, but someone could get hurt very badly by trying.

In the end, the only blades that last forever are the ones that are never used.

scotjute · Apr 25, 2002

Interesting, hadn't quite thought of swords as limited use
tools, but that does make sense. So all the lore about handing a sword down from father to son usually only occurs if the blade
isn't really used much.

Robert Marotz · Apr 25, 2002

Well-made Japanese swords tend to be much more stout (thicker and shorter) than most European swords, and the way they are designed allows them to be potentially very strong (of course, not all Japanese swords were wonderfully made!). In properly trained use, you probably don't have to worry about the sword being severely damaged, though it is not uncommon to find chips or nicks from contact with armor and other swords during its lifetime.

I don't know too much about European sword "durability."

Personally, I've broken a few cheapies at the tang and even in the center of the blade from conventional cutting or extreme stresses like throwing.

Triton · Apr 25, 2002

Hmmm that's a good point Scot. There are examples of sword lasting for extremely long periods of time, it seems like I remember reading about a viking type X being fitted out in a katzbalger hilt even. So how come these swords didn't break... Ken are you guys breaking A&As and Del tins along with those MRLs?

not2sharp · Apr 25, 2002

So how come these swords didn't break...

A part of me suspects that sword on sword combat was far rarer than we would tend to think. Swords were primarily an instrument of the nobility used against a rival's poorly armed peasant muster. The local nobility would have known each other quite well, probably would have often been close relatives. They knew each man's ability; so why would they risk a fight with a more capable foe. Most likely the weaker would just yield to the stronger.

Whatever real sword fighting was going on was probably limited to the rare stranger, or the oddball hardheaded short-lived idiot.

n2s

Ken Cook · Apr 25, 2002

Scot said...
"So all the lore about handing a sword down from father to son usually only occurs if the blade
isn't really used much."

I suspect there's a lot of truth to that, but it's still a "yes and no" answer.

Robert said...
"In properly trained use, you probably don't have to worry about the sword being severely damaged, though it is not uncommon to find chips or nicks from contact with armor and other swords during its lifetime."

I have a hard time accepting this.
True, my knowledge of Japanese swords is limited, my knowledge of Japanese Swordsmanship is somewhat better though.

While I'll grant that proper training will allow you to prevent catastropic damage to your sword, I have to believe that in the midst of _____ (Insert Famous Feudal Japanese Battle here) they probably weren't too awfully concerned with keeping their blade pretty.

As a matter of fact, considering the mindset behind Bushido, where Victory, Honor, and Glory reign so supreme that a Samurai is willing to die for the sake of winning, I can't imagine he'd be too concerned about the quality of his blade.

Fact is, if Nihonto blades were as good as modern afficianados seem to believe they are, the art of SwordSmithing would have died out sometime in the early 1600s. There would have been enough swords. (The Samurai class wasn't a growth population.)

Knowing the Japanese obsession with perfection, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of blades that were seriously damaged in battle were ceremoniously and quietly destroyed only to be replaced with an identical new one fitted with the old furniture. (Mad Heresy, I know. Please forgive me.)

Triton said...
"So how come these swords didn't break... Ken are you guys breaking A&As and Del tins along with those MRLs?"

Well which would YOU practice with? A cheap "trainer" or the blade handed down to you by your Fifth Great Grandfather?

No one in the group is using A&A, but there are many Del tins. I will happilly report that the Del tins do last significantly longer than the cheapos. About one in four of the MRL blades break in the first duel. (These are promptly replaced at no cost by MRL. Great service!) If they make it through the first 3 or 6 duels (3 scored duels per man, per week.) they're usually good for a year or two, depending on the amount of use and the grinding/shaping talents of the owner.

My Hanwei Papenheimer is still going strong after almost 3 years, but I intend to retire it soon and replace it with something much nicer. Hopefully, it'll last long enough, the battered, patina covered blade and hilt lend the sword a lot of character. I'd be proud to retire it to a place of honor on my Living Room wall.

Remember, many older blades were re-hilted and passed down, but then again, many blades started out as one type of sword, and the blade was "salvaged" and re-shaped into a smaller, shorter, lighter, newer, more fashionable sword.

We see the same sort of thing today in Firearms. An old gun is still quite servicable, but the barrel is shot out or the chamber is damaged, so a Gunsmith rebores or rechambers that firearm to a larger caliber and the gun is granted a new life and will see many more years of useful service. However, 500 years from now, a historian may be confused to find a Winchester 1885 Highwall chambered for .45 Colt. (An offering never made by the factory.) He may well determine that this gun was a very special "Family" firearm passed down from Fathers to Sons and carried into battle by many generations during the incredibly violent 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Who knows?

Robert Marotz · Apr 26, 2002

Ken: When it comes to Japanese swordsmanship, there's a few different perspectives. Prior to pax Tokugawa, battle was on a larger scale and much more common. These were times when "bushido" didn't really exist in the form people see it today. Also during this time, most individuals receive little training compared to those who specialized in the sword during the Edo period. I would only assume that they had to have a decent knowledge of a large array of weapons, and probably focus more into the spear or bow (depending on the time period). The sword was not something that technique was important to, so it doesn't really apply to my prior post. This type of battle was much different from that during pax Tokugawa, which was no longer based on large-scale battle, and became more of a status thing.

"Fact is, if Nihonto blades were as good as modern afficianados seem to believe they are, the art of SwordSmithing would have died out sometime in the early 1600s. There would have been enough swords. (The Samurai class wasn't a growth population.)"

I think your reasoning is flawed here. There are many, many reasons why Japanese swordmaking did not completely die out (though it almost did at a few points in time).

However, I'm not talking about the oldest blades or the bigger battles. When I talk about swordsmanship, I normally refer to the styles that were developed during Tokugawa peacetime, as those are where it was "refined" into a more precise art.

I never said the Japanese swords were anything close to indestructible. A fair amount probably were seriously damaged and/or destroyed. However, proper technique avoids a lot of stresses that are otherwise placed on the blade, in addition to naturally avoiding armor (which was often lighter or non-existent when swordsmanship was being really practiced). Also, with the cored lamination techniques used and the fact that heat treating wasn't always optimized, some swords could practically bend like taffy (as far as swords are concerned) but would have a hard time breaking. Normally, damage includes chips, nicks, broken tips, bends, and the like--and a good amount of this damage was most likely done via methods other than fighting.

I don't wanna come off as stereotyping all swords just by their regional style...lots of variation in quality and design among Japanese swords. There are a few that I and others have seen that would chip if you looked at them the wrong way. Just wanted to clarify the intention of my post.

Sorry for taking up so much room on the board.

Triton · Apr 26, 2002

Sort of a rock and a hard place isn't it? You can't really tell how well a sword will hold up until it is used and you don't want to use a really expensive sword in case it doesn't hold up. I don't blame you I wouldn't use an A&a for what you guys are doing either. To expensive.