Expensive Lanyard Beads with NO Counterfeits- HOW?!

[Motega]

I scoured the forums for this- maybe its in here somewhere but I can't find a thread on this.

Put aside the fact it's basically jewelry and unnecessary. There are a few bizarre things about these beads starting with the fact there is really no clear consensus on what to even call them. EDC beads, lanyard beads, paracord beads, knife beads... obviously you need something more than just "beads" or you end up looking at charm bracelets for women, but it seems the jury is out on any "official" name for them.

The thing that puzzles me the most though is that while I understand the original sculptor's time and artistry, once you make the mold 90% of these beads are either just lost wax cast, die cast, or machined with some occasional finish work. Compare with the detailed miniatures made for RPG's like Dungeons & Dragons which used to sell for about $5 at most and had a ton more detail. Even factoring in titanium or steel vs. lead or pewter, it amazes me that the sellers won't budge from the $30 avg price on these things. I have to believe that means they are selling enough of them.

The craziest part though is that there are from what I can tell ZERO knockoffs, clones, counterfeit, bootleg, whatever you want to call them. Most of the detailed ones that aren't just skulls or plain cylinders are from Ukraine from what I see.

How is it the Chinese haven't knocked these off yet for the $1 it takes to make them in bulk over there?

There are a few I really like- there's an owl that looks like the cover art of "Fly By Night" from Rush and a cool Cheshire Cat with removable top hat. Some neat helmets, creatures, etc.

The ones I see are just bronze or stainless or some other base metal.

The last thing is (and I am going to email the dude and see what's up with this) is that the "engraved skull" advertised up front is totally different from the one once you click in inventory. Same seller.

Totally baffling how these designs don't ever get cheaper or get knocked off. I find it hard to believe some Chinese seller would worry about copyright infringement from a small time artist when they are out there boldly slapping CRK or Strider logos on obvious fakes.

Anyone know what;s up with this? Or find a decent way to get similar designs without dropping $30?

Check out some pics- especially the 2 very different qualities on the skull- you can see (again this is the exact same seller and page) the detail on the first pic and then clearly a worse version being offered...I don't think you can even get the nice version.

This isn't a gripe about how no one "needs" these, we know that.

 

[Blues]

We're treading unpleasantly close to trying to either encourage or ask how to locate knockoffs...neither of which fits the spirit of these forums. If someone has an answer for the OP, please take it to private messaging.

We can revisit if legit sources are uncovered without wandering into the nether world of counterfeit items.

 

[Motega]

That's fair enough- let's forget that part and just consider the question of why there aren't knockoffs and agree that we will honor the spirit of the forums and never actually support the sale of such items. I'm just curious about how the intellectual thieves are knocking off well-heeled companies like Spyderco, Buck, and Benchmade to name just a few, but don't touch the beads.
Plus, the point is there are no knock offs to locate- that's my whole point.
But if someone does know of a source we obviously don't want to know and won't tolerate discussion of the particulars- that goes for private messages as well- don't send them.
Again, I'm confident that there are none out there anyway and since the counterfeiters are happy making a nickel on a fake item it's a legitimate question as to why they don't exist.

The only thing that I would tolerate is a legitimate artist selling unique designs at a more reasonable price point, but even that shouldn't be posted if they aren't supporters of the site- just asking in general if anyone has encountered them because I sure haven't except for the generic skulls, cylinders, and basic shapes.

We aren't going to break any rules, and it's an interesting enough question to float. Totally bizarre.

 

[Blues]

Fair enough. I've reopened it based upon the conditions you've set, but let's tread lightly. Thanks for taking pains to do so.

 

[Motega]

Would it be appropriate to move this to the main forum?
I discovered a few things.
First. the bead advertised is a scam in that it was a one off handmade bead for $800 and the seller readily admitted using it to draw in customers.
The second is that it is 100% legal to make copies for yourself. In hobbies where the hobbyist wants multiple examples for his own use (model railroad guys and war gamers told me this) it's the reason why models are pricey and I was told the artists often give users tips to help reproduce difficult details.
At least this is one possible explanation for the outrageous prices and lack of copycats.

 

[Blues]

Better to leave it here since it is not about knives per se but rather tinkering and embellishment.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Maybe the market for these is more of a niche than you think? Is there enough volume to interest mass production knock-offs?

 

[bgentry]

It's weird that you seem to be arguing that:

1. These guys make too much money and it's not reasonable.
2. Knockoffs should exist because the real thing costs too much and you are not willing to pay.

If you're not arguing those points, then I stand corrected.

These are a form of art. They aren't screws or bolts. Art has always had its own price which is dictated by the market. Art doesn't follow any kind of rational supply and demand model for market price. Rather it's about what some number of buyers are willing to pay. Usually many, many times what other people think that same art is worth.

As art goes, these tiny sculptures (or castings) are pretty neat and fairly inexpensive.

All that being said, I have not purchased any myself because the cost to enjoyment factor is not high enough for me. Yet.

Brian.

 

[BitingSarcasm]

The counterfeiters work under the "close enough" principle, in that their garbage looks close enough that people will bite. For some buyers, they are after the iconic look without caring--or knowing enough to care--about whether the bogus product can perform at the same level as the original. This is part of what makes us shake our heads in disbelief, because why would you trust your hands to a tool that could fail in spectacular and devastating fashion? The counterfeiter has no skin in the game, if his knife breaks and takes your finger with it, the chances of tracking him down and getting satisfaction are infinitesimal.

Beads are different. As mentioned above, they are small artworks and as such the material they are made of (precious metals excepted) is secondary to the aesthetics of the piece. Looks are important with beads, and the higher end you go on them, the more important that those looks match the price tag. The profit margin on counterfeiting the more expensive beads is probably not worth it because of the amount of labor that would go into each bead has to be measured against the small number of products that would eventually be sold. Why put in the material, labor, and machine costs to flood a niche market? Counterfeiters make their money by selling crap products in bulk, and there isn't enough money in the bead world to make it worthwhile or they would do it. If some day beads get wildly popular, then that will change.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Some of my favorites are multi layered colored g10 or micarta.

The truth is, I can make those my self ( I have a drill press, hand drill, 2x72 grinder etc).

The engraved, cast, turned steel, brass, silver, TI versions look great...but on high end knives I feel they mar the finish, more than the utility given.

I have two beads, both wood (one a burlap, the other with paint on one side for contrast) I hardly use them because the knives I put them on are not really enhanced by them....

Interesting question about why there appears to be no knockoff market.

I don't buy knock off knives. And would not buy knock off beads. But, a manufacturer could easily design their own at low cost and make an impact on the market without copying any specific makers unique products.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi
for perspective
see threads/non-overpriced-aftermarket-clips.1706599/
So one custom pocket clip maker had
7407 Sales since 2013 ( 7 years)
7407 = 1058.1429 * 7
average price is $30 per clip
so $30k a year
say its costs $5-$10 to make one of the fancy clips,
thats $20k-$25k per year, ...

compared to knives
Spyderco wikipedia page says revenue is 10 million ... say avg price is $100
10 million = 100000 * 100
thats 100 thousand "knives" sold each year
a sprint run is 1500 knives or less

similarly emerson knives
10million = 40000 * 250
40k knives per year

Frost Cutlery generates $30 million in annual revenue
30million/10 = 3 million
millions of knives per year

 

[Motega]

No, I am not arguing . :
1.These guys make too much money and it's not reasonable.
2. Knockoffs should exist because the real thing costs too much and you are not willing to pay.

I was simply wondering why they have not been copied. I have seen items ripped off to make an extra .10 cents volume aside, so it still doesn't make sense.

What I WAS able to do was discuss with the artist the possibility of doing a forum specific bead as a sort of challenge coin for some forums I belong to.
I will get in touch with the boss here to see if he's interested, possibly as a charity event.
It would add some solidarity to our ranks and be a neat thing to do one yearly for a worthy cause.

 

[bgentry]

No, I am not arguing . :
1.These guys make too much money and it's not reasonable.
2. Knockoffs should exist because the real thing costs too much and you are not willing to pay.

Then I stand corrected. It's often difficult to determine what someone means on a forum since it's a wall of text, followed by another wall of text. As opposed to a conversation. I'm glad we got this clear.

I'll be curious to hear about how your "challenge coin beads" project progresses.

Brian.

 

[Motega]

I need a mod here- I have been talking to the guy that is one of the biggest Ukrainian makers around here sent pics of the whole process of making them along with some other interesting facts- like that they use almost exclusively melted Russian coinage (Melchior) for their supply of metal.

He also said they do in fact have artists and designers in house if we're wanted to get an official Bladeforums bead made. Maybe the owner of this site would let us do it. Oft would be a good way tho help support the site, maybe a portion to charity, and it would also be a good way to recognize other members and feel even more part of a community. Especially with what's going on right now, it would be a good time to do this.
Who do you think I should ask?
I don't even want tho post pics until I get a green light though.
Finally a legitimate way to justify some knife jewelry !

 

[Blues]

You can write to @Spark, the owner of the forum to inquire if he has interest in such a venture, I can't answer for him, especially under the current circumstances of the global pandemic.

That said, you can post information about the process or other relevant data in this thread as long as it is not used as a direct vehicle thread for the vendor / craftsman (unless that individual becomes a paying / supporting member under the proper category...and even then, sales / ordering would belong in the "exchange").

So no links to the craftsman or vendor would be appropriate until such time. Otherwise, discuss it freely as you would any other topic of interest to our community.

 

[bflying]

So, let me see if I got this straight. You talk about a $30 bead as being way overpriced. Ask why there are no knockoffs. Then divulge that your pictured $30 bead, is in reality, a knockoff of an $800 bead. Then ask again, why there are no knockoffs. Then make the statement that it is 100% legal to make knockoffs in a hobby. Then state that's why hobby stuff is so expensive.

Did I get all of that in my condensed version? It sounds like what you are really looking for is for someone to knockoff the $30 knockoff, and sell for $1 so it is more in line with your "jewelry" expense boundary.

I might guess that the making of a copy for personal use, and selling said copy, are two different overt acts. One may be legal in a loophole, but the other is most likely not. Unless of course, that the seller of the $30 version, is in reality the original artist of the $800 version. Or licensed by them.

I really don't have an opinion on the price things are sold for. They're worth what someone is willing to pay. What I do have issue with are the counterfeiters. No matter if they're a business, or hobbiest.

For myself, I don't think I've ever paid more that $10 for a bead. Most of what I currently use are just simple wire twists made by me. Most copper, some fine silver.

 

[Motega]

I have no idea what you are yammering about. I looked into an anomaly and got an interesting answer, with a bonus of learning a whole bunch about the lanyard bead business.
I now understand why they aren't counterfeited and why they cost so much, along with some other things that are interesting to people who enjoy looking deeper into their hobbies.

The only thing I suggested as far as any type of selling is concerned is that it might be fun to have this guy make a bead that we design together and use the proceeds to fund this site and a charity related to the current crisis. I didn't say anything about personal gain.
I think it will be a fun thing to work on as a community, with the added benefit of a small chance of seeing one on public and striking up a conversation about something that normally never gets mentioned.
I know lots of members feel like they are the only ones they know that love this "hobby" so much.
What's your beef with any of that?

And YES the guy I spoke to is the original artist.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

The answer is likely that there isn’t any bead that has enough demand to make it worth making a “counterfeit.” There are plenty of artists in China who can make a mold for whatever you’d want.

There are tons of cheap lanyard beads from the usual Chinese outlets, including some pretty ornate stuff. Milled titanium ones are like $4. $30 will get you titanium with a bunch of tritium vials.

 

[Motega]

Some of my favorites are multi layered colored g10 or micarta.

The truth is, I can make those my self ( I have a drill press, hand drill, 2x72 grinder etc).

The engraved, cast, turned steel, brass, silver, TI versions look great...but on high end knives I feel they mar the finish, more than the utility given.

I have two beads, both wood (one a burlap, the other with paint on one side for contrast) I hardly use them because the knives I put them on are not really enhanced by them....

Interesting question about why there appears to be no knockoff market.

I don't buy knock off knives. And would not buy knock off beads. But, a manufacturer could easily design their own at low cost and make an impact on the market without copying any specific makers unique products.

BigfattyT and Bucketstove. You guys wete pretty spot on...

It's crazy that every bead is dpne with list wax then hand polished.
Super helpful and insightful.

 

[Motega]

Dropped a message to Sparky...
If anyone is particularly pro or con this idea speak up.
I'd be willing to do the legwork around organize whatever we need to make it happen if enough people are in and S partly says OK.