Experienced Elk Skinner

John Cahoon

John Cahoon

JWC Custom Knives
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
2,096
First off, I do appreciate all the helpful folks who contribute so much to the discussions.

This is a hunter skinner in O1, HT by Paul Bos, with dark ironwood scales and nickel silver guard. It is hand sanded to 2000 grit and buffed with 3 progressive compounds (it's shiny, what I'm calling a highly reflective finish, not mirrored, so as not to mislead). Guard to tip is about 3.75" and 1.5" tall, about 8.25" overall. I made it for my best friend from the first grade (we are 60). If you look closely his initials, MM, are filed into the spine in the front handle area, filled with blackened epoxy. His wife asked him who's WW?!?!?!

He used it to process two elk in Southern Oregon this fall and mentioned that it worked OK, but was not as efficient as it could be. It might be personal preference and what he's used to using. He couldn't really articulate the issues. I'm not a hunter so can't speak from experience but I have my own opinions on what issues he may have encountered, I'd like to hear yours. It is very sharp but the shape wasn't ideal for working inside an animal I guess. I am looking for critique, not only of utility but overall design and fit and finish. I have very thick skin so don't hold back.
 
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Who knows it could just be that the knife builds up fat and tallow real quick. I had a friend that complained about his good razor sharp knife being no good because of that problem.
 
Hmm. What's he used to using?
That seems like a good deer-sized knife. Never done an Elk myself. Might need a tad more reach for going deep inside. Was he just field dressing, or doing more? Do you know if he was trying to split the breastbone or pelvis, or using another technique? You don't want to force too much blade through those areas. Note that I've only done TWO deer, but I prefer a FFG blade with a pointier tip, though I do like the curve of your edge for the job. A field dressing knife is more of a precision scalpel than a stout bush blade, IMO. Too big and it becomes clumsy, so I think your overall dimensions are in the right ballpark, depending on the extent of the field work.

ETA: I second olymon's comment about a clean blade. If gunk dries on the edge it will feel dull, but a couple passes with a steel to scrape it off, or a quick washing will let you cut again. Not sure why yours would be more subject to gooping-up, though.
 
ive cleaned and skinned some elk, and i cant see any reason why that would be a fantastic blade for that task.
perhaps its just a little on the large size for overall size compared to what hes used to?
 
Hi Daizee, He sent me an outline of a knife of similar dimension, only it was about 1.25" tall and I don't know the thickness. That blade had a longer belly maybe a little bit and maybe pointier. I have no idea of what exactly he was doing except gutting and skinning. He did pack every bit out though except skin and innards. I wish he would have kept the skin though, that seems like something someone would want.

Hi Willie 71, I guess that would be helpful information. 3/16" in 01. So probably in the 5/32's range after grinding. Other dimensions in the OP. The edge was .02-.03 prior to heat treat with roughly a 20 degree angle per side. Sharpened on a slack 220 belt, cleaned up by hand sanding a little bit at up to 400 with a steel block backing the paper, and finished on whetstones. It went through phone book pages very crisply, which I included in the shipment.

Morvlorv, I'm thinking personal preference and prior experience too, just what you're used to, but also, it may be too tall at 1 and 3/8"... I said 1 1/2 " above but that was the stock height and we lose a little during profiling I guess. And maybe 5/32's stock would be better also.

thanks a lot for the responses fellas, it's very helpful once again.
 
jwccustom57 said:
Hi Daizee, He sent me an outline of a knife of similar dimension, only it was about 1.25" tall and I don't know the thickness. That blade had a longer belly maybe a little bit and maybe pointier. I have no idea of what exactly he was doing except gutting and skinning. He did pack every bit out though except skin and innards. I wish he would have kept the skin though, that seems like something someone would want.

Hi Willie 71, I guess that would be helpful information. 3/16" in 01. So probably in the 5/32's range after grinding. Other dimensions in the OP. The edge was .02-.03 prior to heat treat with roughly a 20 degree angle per side. Sharpened on a slack 220 belt, cleaned up by hand sanding a little bit at up to 400 with a steel block backing the paper, and finished on whetstones. It went through phone book pages very crisply, which I included in the shipment.

Morvlorv, I'm thinking personal preference and prior experience too, just what you're used to, but also, it may be too tall at 1 and 3/8"... I said 1 1/2 " above but that was the stock height and we lose a little during profiling I guess. And maybe 5/32's stock would be better also.

thanks a lot for the responses fellas, it's very helpful once again.
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I think you are likely too thick. I use max 1/8” for skinners, and often 3/32” I bring edges down to 0.010” in W2 or 52100, and 0.005-0.007” in z-wear. I sharpen at 15dps.
 
Hi Willie, I'm leaning that way too, too thick. But might .01" or less at the edge risk a wavy edge during heat treat or do you grind a bit more after? My MO has been to finish all grinding and hand sand length wise to 400 grit before HT and only finish level hand sanding at higher grits after.
 
I'd go with a narrower blade, ground all the way to the top (full flat) and grind it down after HT to .015 (max).
The width you have isn't helping anything and just giving you more resistance in cutting, more area for tallow to stick and makes tight cut like around the bung hole more difficult. Look at the classic designs. Sharp finger, senderro ect.
 
jwccustom57 said:
Hi Willie, I'm leaning that way too, too thick. But might .01" or less at the edge risk a wavy edge during heat treat or do you grind a bit more after? My MO has been to finish all grinding and hand sand length wise to 400 grit before HT and only finish level hand sanding at higher grits after.
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I heat treat oil hardening (and water hardening) at 0.030”, and air hardening at 0.010”, if not just profiled. On thinner blades, I grind post heat treat. I go back to 60g belts post heat treat, and use calipers to get to the desired thickness. I grind to 120g before heat treat.
 
Here’s an example of a popular model in my neck of the woods. Small guard is mostly for indexing, and doesn’t get caught up on anything or get in the way.

IMG_2237 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr

Another example with a stag handle. Similar design, but a bit less belly.

IMG_1063 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr
 
Yeah, my hunting knives are 1/8", and I wouldn't go thicker. I also grind to ~0.015" or less before heat if using stable steels. A2 is awesome for thin stuff. 15dps in simple carbon steels through A2, and the razor stainless steels. 20dps in large grain/carbide steels.

Belly is good for skinning. Your description of what he did just made me decide to stick to 150lb and smaller deer. cripes, they're trouble enough.
 
I think alot hit on possibly thinning the blade a bit ... the only other possibility I see ... and it's just my preference after 40 + years of hunting and field dressing everything from whitetails to elk and bear ... I prefer a drop point ... even just a slight drop helps to keep that sharp tip from puncturing anything as you open the animal ...

other then those it may just be his personal preference.
 
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Coming from a hunter, and butchering my own animals for years. I don’t have any problem with a thick knife, most of what I build are rather thick, with a full convex grind. And they seem to cut really well. I’ve worked plenty of elk in the field, not with my hand built knives yet, hopefully in December! But I like the stoutness of that blade, as long as the edge is ground right, the thick spine in my opinion does not hinder performance in any way. It’s a little wide, but would still work. I think I would prefer a little narrower blade. But I’m wondering exactly what he’s doing. I don’t usually gut my elk, unless I want the liver and inner loins. Other wise I cape it, and quarter it, remove the back straps, and cut the head and neck meat off, and done. About 80 percent of the meat! One of my favorite production blade types, and shape, is a bark river bravo 1. A narrow, but rather thick blade, with a full convex grind. I’ve worked elk, pigs, and deer with it, and never had an issue.
 
These are kinda rough, but the blade shape is proving to be very useful for a hunter!
 
Hi Mr. Rodriguez7, thanks for that important information. I'm pretty sure he said he opened them all up and took everything but hide and innards. I've been using up legacy O1 steel from my first incarnation of knife making from the late 90's thru about 2002 when life got in the way (seems to be a common story), only tinkered a bit finishing a dozen or so previous ground knives since then and started making again last year. Knife making grabbed me like a drug since then and I do something knife related nearly every day now!

I'll be buying new steel soon and will definitely look into 1.25 in 5/32nd if that sounds about right? Willie 71 said above he uses 1/8 and I'll for sure look into that as well (thanks Willie71 beautiful examples you posted).

Mr. Rodriguez7, I actually have a couple of knives generally similar to yours out in the world. Hopefully I'll get some feedback from these winter visitors when they get to Arizona later this year. They were 440C as I recall, x 3/16" so still pretty heavy duty.

Thank you to everyone who replied, I think I'll be on the right track after this.

John
 
No problem, I’m rather new to knife making. But I got tired of not finding exactly what I wanted. But I’ve been around animals, hunting and butchering since I was a kid. So I still have a lot to learn as far as making blades. But these are some designs, that in my opinion seem to work well. I really like loveless style drop points, and trailing points too.
 
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