Expert witness talks about use of "Tactical" designs in court

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simplemind22

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I recently read an article from the self-defense guru Marc "The Animal" MacYoung on his website, http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/whatknife.htm My interpretation of the text: He has been an expert witness is numerous court cases and recommends carrying an 'ordinary' looking knife for self defense. Knives that appears menacing aka blackened blades, auto/assisted opening features, and tactical names can/will be used against you in the courtroom.

It seems people that carry these tactical knives, can be construed as persons who are 'looking for trouble' when it comes down to it.

Anyone have opinions on this?
 
The article is good and to the point. Any weapon looking knife will be used as an example of intent by the DA if you should be charged in a case. I was in court on another case where I sat through testimony of a home defense case where the home owner used a 19" barrel Remington model 870 in the sportsman stock set up and the DA told the jury how this was a terrible weapon designed to kill people and that anyone who owned want was just waiting to use it on someone....We are talking about a deer shotgun here folks with a wood stock......Can you imagine if he had someone with a AO with a tanto black coated blade ( you know like a Kershaw Blur you can but at any Walmart)....To me this line of thought is of course wrong. but as a former NYC LEO I can tell you it how most officers and all most all DA's think.....
 
Exactly why I got away from assisted. I will carry a flipper like my vantage pro but that's it. I have never reached for my. Knife in self defense but the flashlight came out once (thank god il is talking about ccw)
 
Details like this might only come into play if you really are guilty of overreacting or operating in a gray area. Consider if you use a registered handgun for self defense. The DA can't just come out and claim that because you carried a gun you were looking for an excuse to use it, or try to make a case that a Glock opposed to a revolver says anything about your justification. Add to that, its actually more difficult to find an innocuous pocket knife than it is to find one that has "tactical" features. Even the ones behind the stand-up display at my local hardware store have tactical features.

Bottom line, if your lawyer is worth a crap they'll go right at a DA trying to pull that sort of BS. Look at the facts - if your use of force is justified that's all that matters. You might get charged separately for possession of a "dangerous knife", but the outcome of an actual use of force situation will likely stand on the mechanics of the altercation.

This is the knife Daren Venable used to defend himself with deadly force - the details of the knife itself were never brought up at trial except to say it was a legal pocket knife. He beat the charges.

md%2B041811%2BB%2Bvenable%2Bmet.jpg
 
HeavyHanded While I agree with your gun statements, and since we are both in NY State, the knife laws are different. If you legally possess a pistol then it is acknowledged that you have it for self defense and you have been issue a permit due to an ackowledge need for it. ( once again in NY you have to express a need). In NY there is no knife permit, and a knife carried as a weapon ( including self defense) is always illegal per se the law. Now I know upstate you guys are fair and this type of BS is not often enforced, but it is "state" law and well enforced down state, good or bad.....The point of the article the OP linked too is valid in that most officers will view a knife designed as a weapon as more of an issue than one that is not weapon like, and the DA will attempt to use that against you if he has already decided you are worth his time to move ahead against you in court in the first place. What I do find interesting is that in the last 20 years, knife makers have moved more towards making weapon like designs while society as a whole has moved more towards the "sheeple" thinking that all knives are bad....I am 52 and when I was a teen the only weapon like designs came from Japan and Italy. All th USA models were more tool like or sportsman designs. Now everyone makes weapon like designs and autos and AOs....interesting that the offerings being sold are counter to what much of the general public seems to feel.....
 
Those are good posts heavy hand.

And that is a very cool picture. The contrast is really good. I think its avatar worthy
 
tom19176 said:
HeavyHanded While I agree with your gun statements, and since we are both in NY State, the knife laws are different. If you legally possess a pistol then it is acknowledged that you have it for self defense and you have been issue a permit due to an ackowledge need for it. ( once again in NY you have to express a need). In NY there is no knife permit, and a knife carried as a weapon ( including self defense) is always illegal per se the law. Now I know upstate you guys are fair and this type of BS is not often enforced, but it is "state" law and well enforced down state, good or bad.....The point of the article the OP linked too is valid in that most officers will view a knife designed as a weapon as more of an issue than one that is not weapon like, and the DA will attempt to use that against you if he has already decided you are worth his time to move ahead against you in court in the first place. What I do find interesting is that in the last 20 years, knife makers have moved more towards making weapon like designs while society as a whole has moved more towards the "sheeple" thinking that all knives are bad....I am 52 and when I was a teen the only weapon like designs came from Japan and Italy. All th USA models were more tool like or sportsman designs. Now everyone makes weapon like designs and autos and AOs....interesting that the offerings being sold are counter to what much of the general public seems to feel.....
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Many interesting points when one starts to discuss knives and self defense. In my opinion and experience, LEOs view any knife as a weapon no matter its characteristics if the behavior of the owner is questionable. Downstate, from what I read about the details surrounding some of the NYC arrests, any knife is viewed as a weapon regardless of possessors intent or circumstances. In pretty much every state and locality in the nation, possession of a knife for self defense is unlawful. However, prosecutors will only have your words to make a case for this presuming your knife isn't outright illegal (auto, double edged, push knife). As I mentioned, a competent lawyer should absolutely bullrush any prosecutor that tries to make a case based on the characteristics of a technically legal knife, independent of the actual justification for one's actions in a situation. I'd venture a guess and say defendants that get hit with this sort of tactic and have it stick are most likely represented by the Public Defenders office.

Interesting point about how knife designs have changed. My theory is that as guns have proliferated among the juvenile criminal element, the knife is no longer seen as a hoodlums tool. As Ice-T raps: "Gang bangers don't carry switchblades, every kid's got a Tec9 or a hand grenade!"

Makers put out tacticool knives because they sell better and are genuinely more handy to use in most cases.

For myself, I now EDU a small fixed blade at least till the DA Vance issue is settled, and if I have to use it or am asked about it by LE then its a tool and nothing more and that's all I'm going to say.
 
I believe we see things the same HeavyHanded. The knife makers/sellers have moved towards more weapon like designs and have named knives with words that either note the speed which they open or the fact they would be a great weapon if needed to be used as such, and I still feel that while that allows them to sell more knives, it also puts more knives out there that appear to be weapon like. I agree that one hand opening knives are very useful in many cases which are not self defense, and even the NY State law allows for the possession and carry of switchblades and gravity knives for use while fishing/hunting/trapping since the need for a readily accessible knife is a real need during those activites....

Interesting that the knife pictured above seems to be a useful blade design as opposed to a tanto blade, but I would bet it could be flicked open which DA Vance would deem a gravity knife under the same state law that is in place where this case took place.....I googled the case..interesting reading....
 
The film "The Hunted" did nobody any favours when it comes to the features of knives used as tools.
The Tom Brown Tracker was intended to be every bush tool in one package, knife,axe,saw, draw knife, wire breaker. All the public now remember is that it's that vicious fighting knife as seen in the film.

There are 2 knives here, both approved for use by boy scouts (in the UK, under supervision). Which one is less likely to appear in court as Exhibit A?

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I think it is sensible as well as a sign of good taste to stay on the safe side as it probably better to carry a Gentleman's Finest Knife than a Seals First Choice Throat Slicer. Same goes for the way the knife is marketed by the company that makes it otherwise. Less tactical and self defense is more in my opinion.
 
tom19176 said:
I believe we see things the same HeavyHanded.
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Yes, I do believe we're pretty close on how we view the bigger picture. I also have no issue with folks choosing a less aggressive looking knife no matter how they intend to use it. I've thought about switching to an Old Hickory or similar knife for EDU, but am no good at making my own sheaths...

I do think the concern is a bit overblown, but then there's always a DA that's willing to chance egg on their face for an opportunity to look good for the cameras.


tom19176 said:
Interesting that the knife pictured above seems to be a useful blade design as opposed to a tanto blade, but I would bet it could be flicked open which DA Vance would deem a gravity knife under the same state law that is in place where this case took place.....I googled the case..interesting reading....
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A very interesting case, at first I thought he was going to be burned at the stake - killed an unarmed frat boy, but as more details were released it became apparent the kid shouldn't have been charged at all. Somewhere out there are bits of his interrogation tape - good idea for people to watch that. Here's a link to his interrogation :

http://rochesterhomepage.net/fulltext/?nxd_id=244567

Not long after this case, another one went to a jury trial that involved a guy shooting an unarmed assailant following a road rage incident. Shooter was partially trapped under his motorcycle and his attacker seemed poised to continue. Shooter was found not guilty of assault, despite testimony that he said he'd shoot somebody if they screwed with him on his bike etc. Shooter had a black eye and no other marks. And both of these cases were NY, I have to chuckle when I hear people from other states spouting about how you can't defend yourself in NY without going to prison for 7-10. You just never know.
 
You can put me in the group that says if it's legal to carry, and self defense is justified, then I'll carry whatever I please and not worry about whether it scares stupid people.
 
I appreciate the replies... even contrasting in some areas.

Does anyone have any other court cases we can reference?
 
tom19176 said:
The article is good and to the point. Any weapon looking knife will be used as an example of intent by the DA if you should be charged in a case. I was in court on another case where I sat through testimony of a home defense case where the home owner used a 19" barrel Remington model 870 in the sportsman stock set up and the DA told the jury how this was a terrible weapon designed to kill people and that anyone who owned want was just waiting to use it on someone....We are talking about a deer shotgun here folks with a wood stock......Can you imagine if he had someone with a AO with a tanto black coated blade ( you know like a Kershaw Blur you can but at any Walmart)....To me this line of thought is of course wrong. but as a former NYC LEO I can tell you it how most officers and all most all DA's think.....
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Not too sure if I would want a guy nicknamed "Animal" to be a defense expert witness in court, especially if my butt was on the line. I would prefer retired police officer and Lethal Force Institute founder Massad F. Ayoob to handle such a task. I do agree that a "plain" knife would be much easier to justify if used in self-defense. Under no circumstances would I ever own a knife that was labled "Gut Splitter", "Death Master", "Rambo Commando", etc. As for the 12-gauge Remington 870, it is my primary hunting (loaded with slugs) and home defense (loaded with OO buck) firearm. If any uppity D.A. tried to show the venerable 870 in a negative light, the defense attorney could easily counter that by explaining to the jury that it is basically the standard police pump shotgun here in the United States, used by notable law-enforcement agencies such as the FBI, Secret Service, Marshals Service, Customs & Border Protection, and Coast Guard, just to name a few.
 
Do any of you think that the police shouldn't carry "tactical" knives?

How are we any different?

To be honest, I don't carry a knife for SD. It is a utility tool. If I thought a "Throat Ripper 9000" suited my purposes then I'd carry it. A tool is a tool, guys.
 
Excellent reply, thanks. My question is: just because it is a weapon chosen by law enforcement as a defensive "tool", how does that make it any less likely to get a civilian grilled in court? Guns and knives also aren't exactly apples to apples.

My opinion, the cops operate under a different set of rules and have more leverage in what they can get away with legally (I'm talking off duty here, not in uniform).
 
I believe it's accepted an LEO might use a knife in SD, while in most states carrying a knife with intent to use it as anything but a tool will get you arrested. Especially on duty, the game changes.
 
simplemind22 said:
Excellent reply, thanks. My question is: just because it is a weapon chosen by law enforcement as a defensive "tool", how does that make it any less likely to get a civilian grilled in court? Guns and knives also aren't exactly apples to apples.

My opinion, the cops operate under a different set of rules and have more leverage in what they can get away with legally (I'm talking off duty here, not in uniform).
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For the same reason that many will recommend choosing concealed carry handgun ammo the same as what the local PD uses. Just an example though. I really hate that police see themselves as a separate class. Pet peeve of mine is when police call people "civilians" as if they are not also civilians.

I refuse to label my knives as weapons as you did above. For the same reason I don't call my AR an assault rifle. I just refuse to accept that term and it's connotation.

I'm not saying that I know the law in your area and that you can't get in legal trouble... But if the law thinks that it can tell me what my intent was based on what's in my pockets, then that's a bullshit law. "Intent to use"... Yep, why else would it be in my pocket. Now don't tell me you know what I intend to use it for.
 
An AHOLE D.A. would try and convince a jury that a butter knife is a deadly weapon.Too me a knife is a tool.:)
 
"I believe it's accepted an LEO might use a knife in SD, while in most states carrying a knife with intent to use it as anything but a tool will get you arrested. Especially on duty, the game changes."

I don't agree with you.

Ordinary person may use a knife in self defense as well. Now, if the knife is an OTF or 5 inch combat folder, than you may be charged with some other crime depending on your locality. But once you are in situation where deadly force is necessary, you can use whatever is available to you at the moment, be it baseball bat, crowbar, brick, or a knife.
 
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