Extrema Ratio -- how much is HYPE?

peacefuljeffrey

peacefuljeffrey

Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
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I have a little curiousity about Extrema Ratio knives, but I have to admit that I am a jaded person and quite cynical. When I see big tough-looking letters running down the blade, and a fancy tiger-stripe finish on the blade, and a tanto-edge, I begin very quickly to think "HYPE over SUBSTANCE alert!"

How long will those letters or that finish survive? What is the point -- besides gimmickry -- of a tiger-stripe finish on the blade (though it sure does look cool)? How will such a finish look five or ten years from now?

This was part of the copy on a website I found when searching for Extrema Ratio knives (Extrema Ratio's own website is virtually non-functional):

"...These superior knives have now come to America. Production is planned to be kept low on these knives in order to keep demand high..."
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Now, I'm no economist, but I feel like I saw right through this statement. Production levels do not influence demand. DEMAND influences demand. You don't "keep production low" to keep DEMAND high; you do it to keep PRICE high. Think arabs and oil. When they want to get more per barrel, they slow production. The demand does not vary -- we need the oil. But the price certainly does go up when there is less around for sale.

The common term is not "production and demand," it is "supply and demand," and an important third element is supposed to be included there: PRICE! You start with the public's demand, consider the supply available, and then set the price as a reflection of that dynamic.

It sounds like doubletalk to say "production low ... to keep demand high..." WHAT THEY'RE REALLY SAYING IS THEY ARE KEEPING PRODUCTION (SUPPLY) LOW SO THAT LOW SUPPLY COUPLED WITH HIGH DEMAND (PEOPLE LIKE THE KNIVES) WILL ENABLE THEM TO KEEP THE PRICE HIGH!!!

To me, this just sounds like a cheap marketing ploy designed to get people to overpay for gimmicky knives.

Besides, they say these were designed for the Italian special forces. Are the Italians known for having some sort of tough, badass military that needs the best knives? I know a flight instructor who left the Italian air force because they were so pitiful that the pilots pretty much had to share planes and hardly got any flight time. He now teaches people to fly Cessnas...

So, regarding Extrema Ratio knives:
What say you?

---Jeffrey
 
Economists usually phrase it as the rule (or law) of demand and supply. The goal is to make money, not to supply things as inexpensivly as possible. So they use math, calculus actually, to determine the optimal price/sales ratio and set production levels accordingly. Why make a thousand knives to earn ten thousand bucks when you can earn more by making three hundred and charging more for them?

The catch is that the product has to have enough appeal to generate roughly the predicted number of sales. I think ER has a line of products that is very appealing, that has a certain cachet, so they can charge high prices for them. The question of whether or not the knives are worth the price is answered by the "invisible hand" of the markeplace. Whether they provide value to the consumer or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the ER's are way cool, thus worth the money, though I haven't bought any myself yet.
 
The state of the market is such that most knives are purchased for collecting purposes. "User" knives are dominated by the lower cost, mass produced knives. No doubt that most custom and semi-custom knives are superior in design and construction, the majority of them are simply purchased for novelty. In other words, hype.

Thus, ER is actually quite honest by proclaiming that they intend to keep supply low and prices high. This appeals to the collector's mindset of resale.

ER folders tend to sell rather quickly on the secondary market. Their fixed blades don't move quite as fast.

From a marketing perspective, ER is simply going after Strider's market much the same way Fherman knives are targeting Busse's market.

So, in response to the hype question, I would say a good deal is "hype" but not more or less than at least a half dozen other large manufacturers.

These competitive forces are good as they will serve to put pressure on the differing companies to make a better offering.
 
Don't believe the hype!!! (Said in my best Public Enemy rappin' voice).

These companies produce all kinds of graphs/ such as supply and demand curves, curves to determine the elasticity of rpice, etc. Extrema ratio has an idea of how many knives they can sell, and set a price based on the # of knives they think they can sell at which to optimize profit.

When you hear a statement like "we are keeping production low so we can keep demand high", I doubt very much that a company is revealign their marketing strategies. Rather, they are trying to create more demand. When doing so, you can sell more knives at your price point, increasing profit, or you can increase your price and sell less knives, but still make the profit goals you set for yourself.
 
I don't yet own an ER knife, but am very much looking forward to seeing them in person at the upcoming Blade West show where I'll be attending using the comp VIP passes sent to me by C. Frank Miller of Extrema Ratio! From the reviews I've read, I they seem like they might be tougher than A Falkniven, but more affordable than a Strider for a heavy use knife. I'm not sure I need a knife in that class, but since when is this all about need, right? I think their stuff loooks cool and might well end up with one.

I've been in sales and marketing for over 20 years and one thing is for sure, nobody starts a business to do the world a favor for free. There needs to be profit involved, or it's just not worth it to invest the capitol and all the sweat. If you want to see a perfect example of a company that controld production to keep the values high for the purchaser, look at Rolex. It's well documented that they manipulate their production and pricing to keep value in their brand. For a more extreme example, look at DeBeers in the diamond business. It's plain old high end marketing economics. If a product has been comoditized, like DVD players as an exam, then all the manufacturer can do to grow their business is make more units and make them cheaper, but in high value specialty items, this is a perfectly normal approach to the market.

Just my opinion.

jmx
 
I got to see some of the folders at a gun/knife show, and here are my thoughts on them:

They are tough. sure, anything will be if you make it thick enough, but that much steel does lead to some weight.

The blade was thinner than Strider makes them, not in blade thickness like 1/4" and so, but in the other kind of width. So while ERs knives will be stabby, I dont think that they are as handy for the utility work. (Revision- It looks like I handled the Nemisis the most which has the thinnest blade.)
willowslover_1756_61167



The lock is tough, being a lockback, but it was hard to thumb the knife open for me.


Now saying all of this, I dont own one nor have I used one for an extented period of time. I would like to hear from someone that has.
 
Without the hype factor, most of us would be happy with a Buck 110.:)
 
Originally posted by airblade
Without the hype factor, most of us would be happy with a Buck 110.:)
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No truth better spoken. How many "fads" have there been in the last few years? Mad Dog, Busse, Emerson, Strider, not to mention a legion of custom makers turning out the ultimate knife of the moment. I'm not denying the worth of a given blade, the artistry or production techniques of the makers/producers - God knows I've my share of costly cutlery. But we're talking about a simple tool - a cutting tool. If you like the latest hip knife go for it. Keeping up with fads is expensive and some of the bets cutters I've run across have been fairly inexpensive. ;)
 
Buck 110?

Why would I want to carry around a 7 oz knife to open with both hands, with no clip and a blade that has to be sharpened every other day?

They make good paperweights.
 
Originally posted by mschwoeb
Now saying all of this, I dont own one nor have I used one for an extented period of time. I would like to hear from someone that has. [/B]
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I'm pretty sure the info you're looking for is out there. Do a search on the Reviews and Ratio forums.
 
Without the hype factor, most of us would be happy with a Buck 110
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nah spyderco enduras!

If you know what you are buying there is no reason not to buy an ER knife, if that is the style of fixed blade and folders that you are intersted in then go ahead and get one, i probably wont buy an ER knife since i know they dont exactly meet my needs (but exceed them in many other catagories).

I actually didnt thing that ER had much hype associated with them, sure they are stylish, but someone doesnt tell you that you need one every five minutes, and that they are the be all end all best product for all time like some other minions of manufactures do.
 
All companies hype to some extent, but ....

Once you get one of these babies, you become a believer.

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The grind, fit and finish is excellent. The details are very well thought-out. And the folders are, to paraphrase other, super hard use. The blade shape on the folders vary according to the model. The one posted earlier by someone else is the Nemesis, pretty much designed as a combat folder. Others are more multi-use in their design. Great warranty and super responsive customer service.
 

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My question to peacefuljeffrey, have you handled an ER? Around here we have an expression; it ain’t bragging if you can do it. When you examine the ER line you’ll find that it’s not hype if the product matches the claim.

I’ve know Frank Miller, the ER importer, for years. People who buy these knives are learning what I already know, Frank’s a “stand up” kind of guy. He’s been busting his butt to get the ER line in this country and on the shelf. He’s found the frustration of dealing with people thousands of miles away who don’t understand American people and marketing. He takes his business personal. If people have questions, he gets them answers. If they have warranty claims, and there’s always a few in any business, he handles them, no question, no BS – even when the claim is due to the customer’s screw up.

As for the tiger-stripe finish, simple economic theory states give the people want they want. If there was no demand for this finish, it would not be made. And as for supply and demand, ER is a small factory dedicated to producing a high-quality product. There’s a reason that the rare Ferrari costs more than the plentiful Ford.

As for “gimmicky knives” get your hands on one. The steel is superb, the construction meticulous, the finish flawless. I was at the Blade Show and would put an ER knife up for comparison against any other knife created for a similar purpose. As for the folders, NO ONE makes one stronger.

As for Italian special forces, don’t compare regular forces of any country to their special forces. The special units get special budgets to get the best equipment, in Italy, these special units get ERs. If you handle a Col Moschin or a Fulcrum, which are used by the Italians, you’ll understand why.
 
Hype is a part of marketing. I have learned to look past the hype to the products in question. I am very interested in getting an Extrema Ratio M.P.C., but would prefer one without serrations. This looks like one tough knife. I don't know where in Canada I could get to handle one, as this is something I would have to do before putting out the kind of money this knife costs. Another knife that I really like the looks of is the Nemesis. There is a good chance that I will have one of these clipped IWB in the near future.
 
Originally posted by Rundel
My question to peacefuljeffrey, have you handled an ER? Around here we have an expression; it ain’t bragging if you can do it. When you examine the ER line you’ll find that it’s not hype if the product matches the claim.

I’ve know Frank Miller, the ER importer, for years. People who buy these knives are learning what I already know, Frank’s a “stand up” kind of guy. He’s been busting his butt to get the ER line in this country and on the shelf. He’s found the frustration of dealing with people thousands of miles away who don’t understand American people and marketing. He takes his business personal. If people have questions, he gets them answers. If they have warranty claims, and there’s always a few in any business, he handles them, no question, no BS – even when the claim is due to the customer’s screw up.

As for the tiger-stripe finish, simple economic theory states give the people want they want. If there was no demand for this finish, it would not be made. And as for supply and demand, ER is a small factory dedicated to producing a high-quality product. There’s a reason that the rare Ferrari costs more than the plentiful Ford.

As for “gimmicky knives” get your hands on one. The steel is superb, the construction meticulous, the finish flawless. I was at the Blade Show and would put an ER knife up for comparison against any other knife created for a similar purpose. As for the folders, NO ONE makes one stronger.

As for Italian special forces, don’t compare regular forces of any country to their special forces. The special units get special budgets to get the best equipment, in Italy, these special units get ERs. If you handle a Col Moschin or a Fulcrum, which are used by the Italians, you’ll understand why.
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Rundel,

I take it from your post that you own and use one these folders EDC...Give us your thoughts and acutal user experiances with this blade.


Steve
 
Boink:

Is that the fixed blade where the handle can be changed out for another of different material and or color ??

I am looking forward to seeing the ER blades at Blade West.

John
 
Is that the fixed blade where the handle can be changed out for another of different material and or color ??
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Yes the fixed blades can have handle swaps, they cleverly slide off the tang once you remove a hex bolt. The ER handles are pretty nice, they are Kraton, but they have a very different feel than other kraton handles (like cold steel) for example they dont have that checkering that can make the knives uncomfortable to hold for extended work.
 
Besides making a color change, the other reason for the removeable Kraton is care. You remove the handle and put onto the tang your favorite flavor of protective lube. Gone is the situation other people have experienced with rusting underneath the handle on competing products.

Like I said, very well thought out product design.
 
thanks Brian & Boink. I will be sure to check them out at the show ( which is is about 5 days ) :eek: :D
 
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