F&F observations...

[CL01]

A friend (Also a BFs member) & I were talking about Case slip-joints & I recall reading some threads lately about production knife F&F & it got me to look at my slip-joints more closely.

1st off, I will say that the Cases I have are after '00 (Although I am getting a '79 mini-Trapper on a trade). Their F&F seems to be very good. My friend, however, has gotten a few recent Cases (Through Internet stores) & has had some issues. Case seems to be good, but issues do seem to be present. I do understand that Case turns out alot of slippies, so maybe that plays into the equation, I don't know.

I do know Case can & has made a great product & their Case/Bose collaboration knives are 2nd to none among production knives (& limited production).

Here're my observations on some other production makers. These are my observations & experiences, only:

Canal Street: I've had a few & they seem fine. However, the latest one, a Hawbaker has a very slight gap between the spring & liner. Otherwise, excellent knife.

GEC: I've had a few & their F&F have been very good. My only issue with them have been that 1 had a very stiff spring (Not both, just one).

Queen/Schatt&Morgan: Well, the '09 BFC knife is great. However, I've had a couple Northwoods knives made by Queen & would have to say there were some issues. One had burn marks at the blade edges & the other had some slight gaps in between the springs (2 spring on that one). The actual Queen was tight, but developed blade-play pretty quickly on fairly light use (Which did not loosen other slippies).

Another thing I've noticed, & this is among customs, too, I only have 3 knives that are flush at 3 spots (Closed, 1/2 stop, & open). Admittedly, not all of my knives have 1/2 stops, so this only pertains to the ones that do, but some aren't flush fully open, either. My 3 that are fully flush are the Case/Bose collaboration ('03 Dogleg Jack), a Menefee BackPocket Shadow (Early '09), & a Patrick Knives linerless shadow (A maker on the Forum).

None of the problems have really been big issues. It doesn't stop me from using them, but it made me look at what I have closer. Also, we seem to notice/remember the flaws & forget how many good ones we've had.

I will also say that some knives haven't been terribly sharp out of the box, but that's never really bothered me too much, because I sharpen my knives myself. If I know I'm going to keep a knife, I'll strope it at the minimum.

Comments?

 

[Blues]

Welcome to the wonderful world of knife collecting. I definitely feel your pain and share many of the same observations.

As with most everything else, knife building, both on the custom and production level, is a continuum.

However, whereas most custom makers strive to get better with every knife they build, some production companies may stop at "good enough". This is not always the case, however, and some actually do improve upon a given pattern.

Since there is no perfect knife, I think we have to think in terms of what's acceptable vs what's not. For example, I can live with very minor flaws even on a custom knife yet it will bug the hell out of me if the maker didn't go to the trouble of putting a good, sharp edge on the knife.

On the other hand, while I can live with a small gap or blemish (usually), I can't abide movement in the half stop or blade play (beyond what I consider acceptable).

Even the best makers can't nail every knife and at some point they have to make the decision that the knife is "good enough" given the price, the effort and the man hours involved.

When the stars are aligned and you get one that's virtually flawless, production or custom, it's a happy day indeed.

 

[CL01]

Very good points. I've always had slip-joints, but didn't really get into them, nor my 1st custom until a couple yrs ago (A Ty Montell Trapper, I believe).

I do understand how/why a production knife isn't sharp out of the box can be an issue, too, it just doesn't trouble me as much, but it does make one wonder why a decent edge can't be done every time. I have not had that problem from the many customs I've had throughout the yrs (Of many different kinds).

I didn't even mention my observations on the German made ones I've had or have. I have a 3rd generation ('93) Bulldog Sowbelly Stockman that was used when I got it, but as tight as the day it came out (Admittedly, from the the original owner), but it has stayed tight through some good use.

Oh yeah, Happy Fathers Day to everyone that it pertains to (Myself included).

 

[kamagong]

For example, I can live with very minor flaws even on a custom knife yet it will bug the hell out of me if the maker didn't go to the trouble of putting a good, sharp edge on the knife..

I'm a bit bothered by this too, but I suspect that as awesome as knifemakers are they are just like the rest of us; some can make a knife cut like a laser while others can just barely achieve a serviceable edge. I wish every maker had the skills of the first group, but most probably fall somewhere in between the two ends of the spectrum.

 

[StuntDouble]

I can overlook a tiny gap between a liner and a spring, and even a little bit of blade play, but one of my pet peeves is a knife that doesn't come with a usable edge from the factory. Like others, I usually end up putting my own edge on a knife, but it certainly helps when the foundation is there. I had this problem with both of the Buck 301's I've had (the first a present, the second a warranty and repair replacement for the first), and with some of the Case knives I've bought. Just recently I sent in a Case Trapper to get it tightened and polished up a bit, and when I got it back, the edge I had put on was completely ruined. I sent it off with a nice thin polished edge, and got it back with a rough, thick edge that had to be close to 60 degrees total.

It just seems that putting the edge on a knife would be the quickest and least time consuming part of the manufacturing process, especially on blades this thin. Yet it seems like it's almost an afterthought for most companies.


Chris

 

[Modoc ED]

Fit and Finish will be an issue until the last knife ever produced rolls off the assembly line be it a production knife or a custom knife.

Case as well as other knife manufactures who produce knives in the thousands/hundreds of thousands per year will always have knives that slip by Quality Control and show up at the consumers end. That's just the nature of the beast.

As for "sharp out of the box", I'd rather receive a knife that isn't razor/scary sharp so that I can set the edge the way I like it and not have to re-profile the edge which in some instances can be tedious. That said, most (99%) of the knives I buy will cut/slice paper nicely with a good clean slice with no tearing. That's good enough for me for out of the box sharpness.

I'm not into custom knives but I'd bet many a custom knife maker has scrapped a knife either during manufacture or even at the final polishing because in their eyes there is a flaw or fit and finish issue that they don't want to send out their door. We never hear about those knives as we do a commercial production knife that slips out the door of the factory and finds it's way to a consumer.

Overall, I have to say that the times I have been un-happy with a Case, Eye Brand, Queen, GEC, or any other mass produced knife have been few and far between. For all the steps involved in producing these knives, I have to say that I am satisfied with the state of commercially produced knives these days.

 

[Absintheur]

Fit and finish can be good or bad depending not only on the maker but on the machinery used as well. Case knives for example are not hand made but rather more hand assembled. The machines that make the parts are, in some cases, very old and have some wear as one would expect. I really do believe that is one of the reasons for the tremendous F&F found on some of the imports...they are working with newer, state of the art machinery.

 

[tomcrx]

I think that many look through rose colored glasses..that F&F are getting worse any anything made in the past was made 20x better. I think many of the slipjoint makers are making great knives today and there as many bad ones slipping through as there were 50 years ago. I have seen old Case, Puma, Remington etc. with lax springs, high pins, proud liners, blade rubs and all the other maladies that affect modern knives. When someone shows a 50 y.o. mint Walden it is assumed that every other knife off the floor arrived like that also. What we are seeing is a cherry picked example that has floated around from collector to collector for the past 50 years.

 

[CL01]

I think that many look through rose colored glasses..that F&F are getting worse any anything made in the past was made 20x better. I think many of the slipjoint makers are making great knives today and there as many bad ones slipping through as there were 50 years ago. I have seen old Case, Puma, Remington etc. with lax springs, high pins, proud liners, blade rubs and all the other maladies that affect modern knives. When someone shows a 50 y.o. mint Walden it is assumed that every other knife off the floor arrived like that also. What we are seeing is a cherry picked example that has floated around from collector to collector for the past 50 years.

Excellent points. I've have & have had some old slippies (Some from one of my Grandfathers) & have to say their overall F&F was OK. Some were very good & some weren't.

I do believe that modern machines & techniques produce an excellent product & after factoring in the sheer # turned out nowadays, the # of knives coming out with issues is probably very low compared to yester-year.

Very good point was made about foreign knives QC & that possibly being attributed to newer equipment. One constantly hear about the consistent F&F of SAKs. That may be true, but my guess would be that they're made on quite modern equipment compared to others.

I will say that the closest to perfect "production" knife I have is a Case/Bose collaboration knife. However, due to the way they're made & their cost, they're probably closer to a custom/hand-made knives than to regular production.