Fact or Fraud?

copfish

copfish

Basic Member
Joined
Oct 2, 1998
Messages
1,419
Guys (and Gals), an ethics question. I know there is some discussion about misrepresentation on the Sale boards. I know most of us try to honestly describe an item, often offering JPGs to view. My question is, if you honestly describe an item and someone says "I'll take it." The deal is made and then that party after examing the knife says, "Gee, I did not know the XYZ was so pooly designed." Do you have an obligation to refund? I have not had this happen to me, but to a cyber-friend. I know he honestly described the knife. I have one, it is a POS, but I bought it right, going by that Company's reputation. It was not typical quality work/design of that company. So, what would you do? I am curious because I am trading mine to another cyber-buddy and told him what a POS it was and described all the facts and flaws. BTW, I did a trade once where I thought I was trading for a knife, not knowing nomenclature of that manufactuer... ate the trade... duh!

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"Hi, I'm Fish, and I'm a Sebenzaholic..."
copfish@aol.com

 
Hiya copfish,

If I received a knife (or anything from a BFC member) and for whatever reason it wasn't satisfactory, and I advised the member as soon as I got the item, then yeah, I'd expect a refund. I'd pay the shipping back to them, of course. And honestly explain why I returned the item, regardless of fault. I know I'm still learning about all this stuff
smile.gif


Similarly, if someone gets something from me and it's not what they wanted, a refund is no problem.

I can see where it would be a problem if the funds had already been deposited, or if a lot of potential buyers were in line and they went elsewhere while your buyer ponders the purchase then decides they're dissatisfied.

But the benefits of an honest transaction, even if one side is clearly mistaken... to me, I'd rather refund/return than chance bad feelings. Honest mistakes do happen.

This isn't a business to me, though, it's fun and interesting. And if I had the same experience with the same buyer/seller more than once, it's my option not to do business with that person again.

Good idea to establish all this up front and maintain good commo, of course. With most folks I don't think you'd really have to specify all this, but in light of recent developments on the G, B, & U forum, looks like better be safe than sorry.
smile.gif



Nick



[This message has been edited by chetchat (edited 01-02-2000).]
 
Please don't think I am bitching about BF members! I was curious and thought I would ask. I have received several emails asking if I was unsatisfied. No guys! I am happy with all my trades, even the boneheaded ones!
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I would always try to "make it right" if I traded with someone and they were unhappy. But, If I described a Rabid Cat chisel ground serrated hawskbill tanto as being new, with the exception of kydex scuffing to the blade, then is it my problem that you traded and then decided you did not like serrated chisel ground hawksbill tantos?
 
BTW, on a tangent, for you younger and newer guys (and Gals) your word is all you have. If you say it was shipped on 01/01/00 the postmark better read 01/01/00. I had this problem with a banned forumite. Took him almost a month. His word is **it. If I don't meet my obligation/duty (giri in japanese) I better explain to whomever it impacts. I know if I say I will get by the Post Orifice (don't even get me started on UPS!)Monday, whatever I post will be postmarked Monday. *Rant mode off...
 
I would not expect someone to ship me their knife "on approval" unless it was discussed up front and agreed on. I would however expect an accurate description of the piece and disclosure of flaws or defects before the deal. Good communication and honesty is what I expect from my deals on the board, and so far I have found that in here.

(knock on burl)
smile.gif




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><CHINOOK*>
--
Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult
 
I think some clarification would help:

Situation 1:

Item is not represented accurately, intentionaly or not by the seller.

Situation 2:

Seller "does not like" the item, not because
of mis representation, but because it did not fit their idea of what it should, or could be.

A case could be made in situation one for some adjustment refund, etc.

Situation two, no adjustement is necessary, it was a buyers mistake.

The problem is some people feel that they should have some sort of recourse
not matter what.

For instance I bought a Spyderco Milatary, it was a fine knife but I didn't like it, and sold it at a lost. It wasn't the fault of Spyderco or the seller, but my mistake for not better understanding my wants/needs, and not considering my purchase carefully enough.

It's worth noting that people, including myself, can become mislead through advertising/hype and find out that the real thing is not what it's claimed to be.

Buyers need to know themselves, or they're often prey to fashion.

DaveH
 
When I sell a knife it is always with a seven-day return priviledge. Just return the knife, postage-paid and undamaged, within seven days and I will fully refund the purchase price. You risk only the postage.

I don't want to get into arguements with people about the knife's design or other such issues.

Now, if I do feel that a person has, in the past, abused that priviledge, I may hesitate to sell to that person again or may "clarify a few points" with that person before agreeing to a second transaction.

As I say, "no sale is final until everyone is happy."



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
Sorry, in my post above it should say "Buyer doesn't like the item..."

DaveH
 
I sold hundreds of knives on Ebay online auction, and only had one come back. I always state that a potential buyer should ask any and all questions he or she might have BEFORE bidding on my knives. I probably over describe knives, because I want the buyer to know everything possible good or bad about the knife. I have seen alot of sellers who do not adequately describe their knives. This is very important, especially when you're talking about a collectable knife, where even the tang stamp can make all the difference in the world. I'm not sure if it's actually a consumer protection law or not, but it is accepted on Ebay that unless otherwise stated by the seller, there is a 30 day return period for the buyer.
The best advice I can give a buyer is ask anything you can think of that might affect whether you will be satisfied with the knife. Otherwise, go to a show or store where you can actually handle one. It gets expensive sending knives out that just get returned!!
Take care Forumites and God Bless!! Michael

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"

 
I have bought knives from online dealers with very generous refund policies. On occasion, I have not liked the item on receipt. Before I consider returning an item, I ask myself "did I get what I paid for ? Did the supplier live up to the bargain ?" If the answer to both is "yes", the problem is mine.
I consider a warrantee as insurance against misrepresentation and defective product. To use it to bail from a deal I shouldn't have done would be dishonest and immature.
As for dealing with private forum members, I will be a lot more carefull in future, having waited patiently for more than a year for goods traded for around $400 worth of knives.
frown.gif


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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343
I THINK : THEREFORE I AM.........I think
 
To answer the original question, I think the buyer, rather than the seller, is obligated to find out about the product and decide whether they want it or not. If I have a knife that fits my hand poorly and I simply don't like, my only obligation is to honestly explain what the knife is and its condition, age, etc. My opinions as far as anything else are just that. I would sure hate to close a deal, send the knife, have the guy carry it for a week and decide that he just doesn't like it, and send it back to me asking for a refund!

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My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html

 
You pegged it Chiro!! Outstanding!!

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"

 
Dave H put it rather well. And I wholeheartedly agree with L6 concerning a detailed and thorough description of any products for sale/ trade. There have been several posters in the past with whom I corresponded with and felt that they were not thorough enough or had not even met what I feel would be minimum details for said product. And some of those where I had made the same inquiries more than once! I simply and politely passed on those possible transactions. No harm done. From my business experience I am confident that those that I have passed up probably saved me from some possible headaches.

Relative is the agreement from both partys on the way items are shipped. Priority, insured, confirmation #, global, etc. If these agreements are stated in their correspondence then they darn well better be shipped that way! This has not been the case often times.

L8r,
Nakano
 
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer etc.

I believe US law requires only 3 days. Nearly everybody gives the buyer at least 10 days.

You can't expect anyone to buy things they haven't seen without the right to return it if they don't like it when they do see it. It's just sense ... if buyers didn't have the right to return things once they see them there wouldn't be any mail-order business.



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Defects in materials or workmanship, or a misrepresented item are good reasons to expect a return.

Buying an item sight unseen, then deciding you don't like it is a peril of internet shopping, and I don't feel that a seller (an individual, anyway, as opposed to a business) should feel compelled to offer a "return policy" for changed minds.
 
I've always tried to make it clear to a seller that I want to be able to return a knife if I don't like it for any reason. Or even for no reason.
On ocasions where a seller hasn't gone for that, I've just politely said "No thanks" and gone somewhere else. Or said "I'll take the risk I won't like it" - but it's been my choice as a buyer.

As always, the best thing is to get all the details agreed to first - dates, shipping method, payment details are obvious - but there have been times I've been specific about how the knife should be packed.

And, where possible, find out how reliable the seller is before parting with money
smile.gif




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"..it is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a
stone at every dog that barks at you.."
 
If you bought it, and didn't do your homework, then decided it wasn't whqt you thought it was, that is not a valid reason for return. Especially in cases where a knife is brand new in a sealed bag and the bag is now broken.

I bought a CRKT, not knowing it was made in Taiwan. It is a very decent knife, but the word Taiwan on anything I own just gripes my butt. I can't return that because I didn't do my homework, no way. I gave the knife to my nephew for christmas. No harm, no foul.

My failure to ask the question, or just to do some basic research, shouldn't cause extra work to the retailer. Just my opinion...
 
So, the crowd agrees that if the knife is not as described, then it is the seller's problem. If the knife is as described, just not what the buyer wanted, buyer's problem? That is my feelings and what I realyed to my forum buddy. I have eaten deals where I did not do the research and got something that was not what I wanted but was as described. So... anyone out there want a JSP Ti Comet?
 
copfish,
Could you please describe that Ti Comet?
biggrin.gif

Just kidding....

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Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."


 
Howdy Officer Fish!
I'm in a bit of a rush, so I didn't read other folks responses, so if I repeat what someone else said, pardon me and myself.

That said....

The issue of refunds should be brought up immediately when discussing a possible purchase of anything.
There's nothing wrong with having a "No Refund/No Exchange" policy, as long as you're offering quality that matches the price it's being sold for.

As you say, you're telling the buyer that the item is a POS, so even if it falls apart in his hand while taking it out of the packing material, he's already been warned.

No different than a used car sale, at least if you're not in the business. You can have a car for 10 years with no problems, honestly tell someone that the car's great, and as soon as they drive down the block after buying it, the transmission drops.

You're not required to do anything since it's considered "Buyer Beware".

Anyways, I feel better now that I pretended to actually know something.
wink.gif


Kwazy Kwanza and Merry New Year,
IB VG

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Vampire Gerbil: Nosferatus Rodentus Moderatus; similar to a domestic gerbil, except for the odd accent and little black cape.

 
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