Fail-safe safe

[Shoki]

Yesterday, I inherited a safe from my work that had a broken keypad. Being handy and adept at redneck engineering, I tore the keypad apart and fixed the issue with a soldering iron, pieces of a broken pen, 5-min epoxy, 3 beers, and some expanding foam. It works great now but while I was playing locksmith, I noticed that the mechanism is extremely simple and if it ever failed, my expensive stuff would be locked in there until I went at it with a cadre of destructive power tools for several days.
You see, the keypad is attached to the front of the safe and is totally self-contained. Coming from the keypad are two wires entering a hole that the keypad covers and go to a solenoid inside the door. When you enter the correct combo, power goes to the solenoid, dropping a pin in the locking mechanism and the handle can be turned, opening the door. The problem is, if the solenoid ever burns out, the connections corrode, my son pours a glass of grape juice on the keys, etc. then there is no way to open the darn thing.

What I'm wondering is: Do any of you guys know of a small safe that can be accessed quickly (ie, not a dial) but doesn't rely soley on electronics? This appears to be along the lines of what I'm looking for, having a key which I imagine is part of a mechanical mechanism and not just a means to turn an electronic switch :
http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products/240/DSW5781_Electronic_FIRE-SAFE_
What are your thoughts? What do your store your precious in?

 

[Rupestris]

I do have one like the Sentry X125.

I keep the home defense handgun and a some knives in it and it's mounted close to the bed but out of sight. The key pad is pretty quick and it has a key back-up under the little odd shaped plug between the key pad and the knob.

It isn't fireproof but it works for what I use it for.

 

[Gollnick]

...I noticed that the mechanism is extremely simple ...
You see, the keypad is attached to the front of the safe and is totally self-contained. Coming from the keypad are two wires entering a hole that the keypad covers and go to a solenoid inside the door. When you enter the correct combo, power goes to the solenoid, dropping a pin in the locking mechanism and the handle can be turned, opening the door.

It's not only simple, but it's very insecure. All that need be done is to smash the keypad and then connect the battery directly to the wires leading to the solenoid.

Secure electronic locks are built in two parts. They keypad and battery holder are outside of the safe. Three wires then extend through the hole and enter the safe: power, return (a.k.a. "ground), and data. When you press a key, a code telling which key you pressed is sent over the data wire. Inside of the safe is a box containing the circuitry which decodes those data and decides when to energize the solenoid. If someone smashes the keypad, they are no closer to opening the safe.

No safe is failsafe. In the case of a mechanical safe, if the shaft joining the knob to the lock mechanism breaks, then you're gonna have to use violence to open the safe. Something has to penetrate the safe and if that something breaks, then you've got trouble.

 

[Gollnick]

... but it works for what I use it for.

And that's the key right there. "Safes" come in a wide variety from those which are really just intended to stop busy-bodies and keep children out to those intended to survive nuclear attacks. The word "Safe" is so ill-defined that UL won't even use it. UL talks about "fire-resistant containers" and "security containers" and even within those two classifications, there are categories. Most of the "safes" sold in common retail/consumer stores are NOT security containers; they are low-grade fire-resistant containers. The savvy buyer has to consider what hazards he expects to encounter and select an appropriate container. All "safes" are certainly NOT equal.

 

[Shoki]

It's not only simple, but it's very insecure. All that need be done is to smash the keypad and then connect the battery directly to the wires leading to the solenoid.

That's the first thing I noticed when I opened the keypad. Any thief with half a brain could figure out what those 2 wires go to. I'm more concerned with the security container' being a visual deterrent and a way to safely store my handguns in the house with my little boy running around than having %100 security, which I know is unatanable. Heck, all a motivated thief would have to do is pick the whole thing up and carry it out the front door and crack it at his leisure.

 

[alex]

Those electronic safe keypads are notorious for burning out and malfunctioning leaving you locked out. I am fairly certain they can all be swapped out for an S&G (Sargent and Greenleaf) mechanical dial lock relatively easily and in less than an hour by a safe locksmith. I don't know how big your safe is or if it's worth it to you spending a couple of hundred bucks that it would cost to put an S&G mech dial on there.

Since you mentioned "Redneck Engineering" to which I can relate, you can also just forget about the electronic lock mechanism completely and just weld a very heavy duty protected hasp with a steel enclosure surrounding the padlock which would prevent boltcutters or hammering of the padlock. Kind of like what you see on heavy duty gates out in the woods where you have to reach under the protective steel box to access the lock.

 

[Les Snyder]

if you don't want to go the Sargent and Greenleaf dial route, at least get a Medeco keyed lock box... if you leave your lockbox key (on a ring with car keys) in the lock, you have instant access when you are ready to retire for the night, and won't drive very far if you forget to remove it in the morning

 

[UffDa]

What you did is not a true redneck fix. This is.

 

[Shoki]

Those electronic safe keypads are notorious for burning out and malfunctioning leaving you locked out. I am fairly certain they can all be swapped out for an S&G (Sargent and Greenleaf) mechanical dial lock relatively easily and in less than an hour by a safe locksmith. I don't know how big your safe is or if it's worth it to you spending a couple of hundred bucks that it would cost to put an S&G mech dial on there.

Since you mentioned "Redneck Engineering" to which I can relate, you can also just forget about the electronic lock mechanism completely and just weld a very heavy duty protected hasp with a steel enclosure surrounding the padlock which would prevent boltcutters or hammering of the padlock. Kind of like what you see on heavy duty gates out in the woods where you have to reach under the protective steel box to access the lock.

It's definitely not worth any extra effort or spending, I think it originally cost $200 in 1987.
As far as the padlock idea, that would be an option. Just have to hope that someone who wanted to get into it wouldn't have a bump-key handy.

 

[alex]

It's definitely not worth any extra effort or spending, I think it originally cost $200 in 1987.
As far as the padlock idea, that would be an option. Just have to hope that someone who wanted to get into it wouldn't have a bump-key handy.

Bump key use is greatly exagerrated and should only work on vertically arranged pins that can be "bumped" by the bump key using the aid of gravity. Much easier said than done despite what you read on the internet. A Medeco or other quality padlock while hanging with horizontally arranged pins is almost if not impossible to bump especially if within a protected enclosure. I am fairly sure Medeco locks are bump proof in any position.

Besides, if a pro wanted to get into that safe he would just use a cutting torch. Or even easier make you open it at gunpoint. 99.9% of home burglaries are smash and grab punks easily deterred by any difficulty.

 

[Shoki]

Bump key use is greatly exagerrated and should only work on vertically arranged pins that can be "bumped" by the bump key using the aid of gravity. Much easier said than done despite what you read on the internet. A Medeco or other quality padlock while hanging with horizontally arranged pins is almost if not impossible to bump especially if within a protected enclosure. I am fairly sure Medeco locks are bump proof in any position.

Besides, if a pro wanted to get into that safe he would just use a cutting torch. Or even easier make you open it at gunpoint. 99.9% of home burglaries are smash and grab punks easily deterred by any difficulty.

As a security 'enthusiast' I've experimented thoroughly with bump keys and can tell you that pins certainly do not need to be vertical to be bumped and once you get the bump technique down, it's actually much easier done than said. I admit that I've never messed with a Medeco lock but I'm sure I could figure it out. I've been able to open all sizes of master padlocks, including the circular type, using a bump key. Whatever locks I've been unable to bump, I made quick work of with either a manual or vibrating pick. (Please understand that I didn't learn any of this for nefarious reasons. My thinking is that if I can easily get through my own security than someone else could too. I'm the same way with my computers and I'm always trying to crack my own WiFi network, to put it in perspective.)
Anyway, I mentioned the bump key in jest. Most people who know how to make and use them aren't interested in stealing but understanding how lock mechanisms work and exploring the boundries of security. I like to think of it as 'physical hacking' in the white-hat sense and I'm not worried about those types breaking into my house and stealing my stuff. You are absolutely correct in stating that most break-ins are a smash and grab affair. Honestly, if physical security was the real issue, I would likely be looking at security-through-obscurity rather than an extra-secure safe (a false breaker-panel with my handguns and knives inside would probably be ignored while a theif carried off my flat-screen and PS3). I'm thinking more about quick access and reliabilty than being theif-proof.