Fake Schrades?

textoothpk

textoothpk

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Probably a question for LT, as he is the most knowledgible among us and has the most unusal knives in his collection: Run into any fake Schrades?

This question was inspired by the latest scam-knife uncovered in BRL's forum. As that ebay item shows, it's more expensive knives that get counterfieted and faked and messed around with, but with the prices of Schrade Cut Autos, it wouldn't surprise me much to see those get tinkered with.

I once bought an Imperial Frontier (a cousin of Schrades) on ebay with a Ruger Firearms shield. It was pretty obvious once I had it in hand that it was not a shield, but the emblem off a handgun grip, crudely recessed and glued in. Seems like a lot of work for $20.

Still... any Schrade fakes? (and no, the present China-made Schr***s don't count.

Phil
 
I've seen some of the last-days Schrades that appear to made in someone's basement. Those should count as fakes, even though they contain the proper emblems and stamps. :(

-Bob
 
The first determinate in this discussion should ( I feel ) be a definition of what is a fake. As is often pointed out mostly high end knives or highly collectable ( unusual tang stamps ) are often the ones ie faked, worked, altered whatever is felt to be faking the piece. In Schrades situation you may find anything and the chances are it came from the factory. Schrades with Schrade Walden tangs and Diamond edge or Keen kutter among many others were produced when making millions of knives, depending on many factors including the amount of beer consumed over the weekend by the people making these could lead to any number of variations. I mean if you have a barrel of blades you might install one that should have been in a different barrel without noticing.

Changing a blade or altering a pocket knife is not in the same difficulty level as forging a 100 dollar bill. I don't maybe thats easier. I love these mixed up Schrades also Schrade was always looking for new products so some very strange items came out of there R&D ( research and development dept). There are so many of the later day 70ty to closing OT and UH knives, that I feel the proper term in modifying these is actually simply fixing them.

People do not realize that faking a knife is really only viable in high end rare limited amount made knives. There are some older Schrades which I feel cross the line as repairs versus faking. These are usually the automatics. There are only a few repairs that I feel are in this catagory. Pearl handles are in the grey area. Pearl Schrades are quite a valuable. I know one dealer who does these regularly. Now if he puts these only on the correctly tanged knives and if he advises the buyer that he knows these are replacments OK but no one ever does that. I have also seen hybrids which were never made or imagined by Schrade. One of the biggest value boosters are blade etchs these were electro etchs of which there are people out these who will put any etch on any knife for 35 dollars and up. the old handle materials used on a lot of certain Schrade are either impossible to find or copy and in fact would be cost preventive in faking these. This is a very complicated question and frankly it is more than can be answered in a posting

Suffice it to say that most Schrades do not need to be faked to many around. If it is odd, chances are within reason it is a factory mistake and the money and time needed to phony one up would not be worth the effort. If it is an older Schrade Walden or cut ( slip joint) and it has been altered the chances are it was simply repaired from another knife and if done right ( since the parts available are all original all it does is save another artifact however if the seller is aware it is a repair he should advise the buyer. ) If it A high end auto. There are to many variables to advise them all in a posting, it is at least a volume by itself.

Now all that being said, I am attaching some pics. Again I could to a book on just this subject but to give you an idea . This is some of the spectrum of what I mean. The fishtail has no lock and is in very old cell it came out of the R+D room and was an employee messing around. There is a pic of a standard Schrade Walden orange Para military survival knife the white knife and white shroud cutter are made from a camillus version of this orange knife. I had a friend do it on a bet I won. ( I designed the scrim ). The other knife is a Schrade Walden with a stainless steel blade jigged bone handles and bottom bolsters it is a blatant fake. It was never made by Schrade (looking like this) to begin with the marked Stainless blades were only used on the para survival knives. Never on a bone handled model they also never made them with bottom bolsters. So it is a converted orange military much like the other white handled camillus which I had done. ( shown in the other pics ). The guy who sold it to me swore it was original and that the guy he bought it from had worked for Schrade ( now that is possible) and he was pleased as punch to get 80 bucks knowing he put one over on me. Its oddity is such that I have turned down 500 . It is such a great example of what someone did just for there own enjoyment. I could go on about this subject and show many more examples on both sides knives thought to be fakes that are real, fakes worth more than the original . Fakes so bad they are worth more than the original, factory mistakes and on and on. This is one of the reasons I love Schrades you can find almost anything. I recently found a 225 large folder with lucite handles and two just dandy pictures ( anatomicly correct) of a young lady on either side. ( I will not be posting it ). It was done by an employee who did it for personal use while on the job. This use of employee working time may have also helped Schrades down fall. In conclusion do not be afraid of something unusual from Schrade when you find it look at the price if it is weird and inexpensive it could be a find. I love buyers who write do you have the box and papers if not how do they know it is real? If I don't have a suitable box on hand, I usually write back and say no, I am manufacturing these in my garage they take 8 hours a piece and cost me 40 dollars in parts, plus the thousands in equiptment I need to have. I sell them for thirty dollars. But I make it up in volume. It would make more sense to make boxes.

Tough subject to cover, completly especially when you are introverted and quiet like myself. LT Well I have the pics but they will not post???? Computor god is angry again. I will keep trying. They really are decent examples.
 
The photo loading is not working, so it's not that the gods are POed at you, LT. We can wait for them, your written words were answer enough. Or, as you make the point, as this subject can go on and on, perhaps I should write that your words are a fine start to the subject.

Etchings... One can buy a do it yourself etching set up for cheap through the ads in Knife magazines. As some of you know, I am filling a large display case with etched blade- Schrades. But seeing as the most $ I've paid for any of them was $20, what would be the point? Oh, during the recent, now over, Schrade buying spree, I sold some NRA etched blades for particularly high amounts, but there would not be much use in it now.

Blade exchanges... In every knife collecting book, the author will give his opinion about this. If it is an exact change, really, honestly, so what? Not that difficult to do a workmanlike job, I Removed the Fishing scaler blade off a Camillus fish knife myself, put it back together to make a single blade texas toothpick that is unique. Now that is out and out counterfieting, I think, creating a knife that never was, but I will not sell it with the intent of cheating anyone. I should mark it somehow, so my heirs don't peddle it off to some unsuspecting buyer... but it IS a Camillus, and who pays that much for one of them in any event? Now if I did a Cattaraugus or New York Knife Company fishing knife like that... an expensive one, that would be a crime. Note: A fine book on knife repair is by Ken Kelley, "The Complete Book of Pocketknife Repair".

Yep, as I suspected, LT seems to agree it would be the more expesive autos where doctoring up one would make someone a buck or two. But what crosses the line and what doesn't? Read any knife collecting book by the well known authors and they will give their opinions.

As LT points out, there are a hundred years of Schrades of all differnt kinds, lunchbox specials, special limited issues, and we see on Ebay all the time now one-off models that have come to the surface, knives never ever met to be released to the public. Smokey Mountain is peddling a bunch of these through their Ebay auctions. Makes me wonder if they are disposeing of the Schrade factory collection, or part of it, like this.

Some knives that seem to be fakes are not. A couple of times I have seen ebayers selling Boker knives with a George Schrade tang marked blade, who think they have something unique and rare. Unusual and a nice addition to a collection, but most of these are the folded steel handled cheap knives, and Boker was simply using up parts after they purchased Geo. Schrade. Same same with some PAL/Remington knives. with a REm blade and a PAL type handle.

Thanks for your answer, LT, and you are right, real complicated. No doubt after today's stand-down for maintenance, we'll be able to load photos again and I look forward to seeing yours.

Note... my next repair project is a Schade auto parachute shroud cutter. These were cheap knives, never met to be fixed, looks like a challenge to me.

Phil

Edited to add: Yep, BobW, you do make a good poiint.
 
Sorry LT, Mother nature said go do something else for the night and took away all out internet access.

here are the 5 picts you sent.

p1.jpg

p2.jpg

p3.jpg

p4.jpg

p5.jpg
 
Thanks amigo some day you have got to teach me that trick. Thanks again. Well Phil as it would seem not only did I pick a couple of examples for your Fake question but perhapes these will show a couple of things you can turn this model into. Since everything but the fishtail was contrived from the same shroud cutter military model and you mentioned wanting to fiddle around with one for some experience. regarding etching actually a correct etch (new etch) while not exactly kosher is no big deal the funny examples are when a wrong etch is put on a knife and newby big money collectors think they have found the holy grail. Now that is blatant. LT
 
Ok due to overwhelming requests in the true spirit of Schrade history here are the ( censored ) pictures of the doctored ( IE fake???) Schrade lucite knife which I previously mentioned I had not dug it out in so long I thought it was a 225 it is a 127 UH. How appropriate a very special Uncle Henry. This is what I mean by you may find almost anything with a Schrade tang. Whoops was that a PUN. These lassies look like the ladies I remember from the Norfolk ( infamous Ping Pong Ball posting ). LT PS Eat your hearts out Smokey Mountain here is one you didn't get. PPS This is an american maid Knife.
 
Are those pasties on that girl......... :eek:

That is a cool knife....but censorship is a tough battle and you are quite modest. I have helped a few young beauties through "College" as it were.

About the infamous "Ping Pong Ball" post, hmmmmmm........... ;)

What are the odds? (loose thread tie-in). Go vote!


Bill
 
Perhapes we could make this knife the icon for the newly named forum. Perhapes that would stir the bashful into the fold ( and inspire them to contribute enough votes to give credibility for a name change). We could call it The Jolene and Jessie ( two names I like ) Naked Schrade knife and ping pong , snapper ( er perhapes projectile would be better ) forum. Fankly at this point I would welcome the Chinese vote. Eh we always knew we were alone, the uncaring lead by the unknowing yup a truly american forum. Oh well. LT
 
:D I love this place!!! That's all I'm sayin'...I love this place!! My peoples :thumbup: I am amongst friends and like-minds. It's good to be home.
 
Glad you've found a home, Casey.

LT, those are the biggest batch of switches you've ever shown us here, I think. Beautiful and good photos. Love the censored pics! Always amazes me the prices any of the old nude and bathing beauty knives get on ebay. Many are of celluloid so deteriorated they are hard to make out the babes.

Thanks for the pics.

Phil
 
Ah quantity, well try this 12 dozen (approx) domestic autos with a few euros earliest late 17 hundreds perhapes early 18 hundreds. I didn't know you wanted quantity. By the way you won't find this at smokey. LT
 
That is quite an "ALLSTAR" lineup (weak baseball {9} reference) you have there... :thumbup: (That's good....not "You're Out).

Those are on your CD aren't they?
I'm gonna look at that CD again, even if I do get jealous. It's a shame this is the only place most of us will ever get to see that part of Schrade history. Oh yeah, there is the book... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Thanks for the plug woofer. Somebody is sure pushing my book I keep seeing it on ebay it ain't me but they do send a small check twice a year. I buy a couple of cases of Crown with it. LT
 
With regard to "fake" antique Schrade knives,

There are a huge number of fake old knives floating around that were assembled from 1950's era KUTMASTER parts that came out of the Utica Cutlery factory in the 1980's. Most of these will have been restamped with old knife company names....

I have seen for example a large quantity of old KUTMASTER made bone handle cattle pattern knives, with many different old tang marks like New York Knife Co, John Primble India Steel, etc...and I have seen thes with the Schrade Cut Co marking.

On the subject of more recent Schrade fakes and rewored knives, I have seen on Ebay a lot of Schrade knives with genuine Schrade Walden blades and jigged bone handles....but the bone is newer bone clearly not original Schrade bone.

AND...I saw these mostly 4-5 years ago, long before the demis and longe before the recent cigar box series knives.....someone must have had a hoard of old parts but needed new handles?
 
LT,

Have you been "Crinking the Drown Royal?"....(offbeat reference to another thread...Luis, Luis, help me here!)....Anyway, if you ever put any of those autos up for auction please let us know. Bullhead still awaits.... :)

Bill
 
Schrade was using jigged bone again from the middle 70 tys on Parker Frost and the Schrade cutlery classics issue these are only a couple examples. These examples were in the style of various original jigging patterns. As you know Schrade used several pattern variations over the years. In fact in some cases the original jigging machines used in the late fiftys were used for these. Prior to Schrade just buying ready made handles. This factor it would seem would make these difficult to discern if this material was used on pre 72 Schrade Waldens ( to replace jigged delrin ), other than that I do not see how anyone would have made much off of these 5 years ago after fabricating facimile handles and going through the labor involved and as you point out they would in that case be obviously discernable from regular production. So who knows, Interesting though. In the case of the old rare models and brands, if one has the tang stamp and the equiptment it would seem quite plausible that it would pay to fabricate these high enders. There are fakes around but frankly tang stamps are kind of hard to come by and cold stamping is usually fairly easy to spot. That would seem to have been the only option available on the 50 tys blank Kuts you mentioned. Still you are correct I have seen some strange stuff alot of it used to come from the south ( I will not mention any names ). You do make some interesting points. Actually the really old markings are the ones that I usually question. The reason is that the are so rare that in some cases even the experts are not sure exactly what the stamping looked like. plus in a lot of these cases numbers were so small that the knives were hand stamped as regular procedure and were not all exactly the same. I just bought a L Bradley Knife Co. Levine or Goings I forget which advises against buying these since they are a prime target for faking. I have seen the marking before it is a small whittler with real tortise all three blades are marked the knife pattern, material, and condition make me feel it is legit. The seller listed the handles as composition this mistake happens quite a bit with these knives since many sellers do not recognise the handle material for what it is. I also bought a Mattewan New York Knife small whittler same material same mistake. A while back I bought a Walden C.O.O. very rare even after buying it I went to the Levine forum and asked his opinion on it. Happily he felt it was legit but these are the babys that I am always leary of. LT
 
Here are a few more. Of course these are old pics there are now a few others. LT
 
LT, those are just great, He he, you can keep going till we have the whole CD. The "Schrade Online Museum", nobody proposed that for a forum name.

Bill, the crinking Drown Royal thing was originally your idea, anyway I think this is the best I can do on short notice, a side by side picture of the real thing and the fake.

Luis

9vjhv6.jpg
 
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