Falcata Again...

K

Kevan Taylor-Perry

Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
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I just read something interesting in a book called "Armies of the Carthaginian Wars 265-146 BC" by Terence Wise and Richard Hook (published by Osprey.) The book states that the Iberian falcata of the period had a side pocket in the sheath that housed a knife in the shape of a small falcata. This immediately puts one to mind of the karda and chakma. Can anyone elaborate on this? Do any examples of it survive?

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
That sounds interesting. I'd likemto check it out. Do they cite any sources (textual references, archaeological reports &c)?
 
Tom to the rescue!

How I'd like to be able to say, "oh, yes. In the year 132 Bikram Sambat, a fellow named Govinda Dhital in what is now southern Nepal unearthed a rusty falcata and found a small knife still encased in the rotting sheath along with the big blade and from that day forward all khukuris incorporated a karda and chakma as part of the rig."

But, alas, I cannot.

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Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
Himalayan Imports Archives (18,000+ posts)
 
Not to stray too far from the topic- I saw a program on U.S. tv some years ago about a tribe in the Sahara region notorious for their taking of heads for trophies and a "take no prisoners" approach to xenophobia.
The piece featured the peculiar sword they favor, and the forging of it. The sword was maybe thirty inches overall, double-edged, very wide, and angled like the kukuri and machaera can be.

Any ideas on possible connections- assuming any other forumites have seen the show, or know about the subject?

Sorry I can't remember the tribe or the program's name. These tribesman hold this sword in high importance.

Thanks,

Finn

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"To know and to act are one."

To get away with it is fun.
 
Tom, the authors did not specify from whence they got this information, though I noted a book in the biblography called "Arms&Armor in Spain Vol.1" by A.B. de Hoffmeyer. Also among the bibl. is "Hannibal & the Enemies of Rome" by Peter Connolly along with "Histories" by Polybius, "The War With Hannibal" by Livy, and "Makers of Rome" by Plutarch. There are a few others, though from the titles, they wouldn't appear to be the source. Here's another thought: What if this design of weapon did not originate in Greece or North Africa and spread to Nepal via Alexander? What if came to the region of India via the Indo-Europeans who carried it in from somewhere in the steppes? Following waves of Indo-Europeans may have then carried it to Greece (perhaps the Hyksos introduced the idea to the Egyptians earlier than that if one would think the Hyksos to be of Indo-Aryan stock.) R. Gordon Wasson advanced the theory in his book "Soma: The Divine Mushroom" that the Soma spoken of in the Rig Veda was the Amanita Muscaria (Fly Agaric) and that this was introduced by the Indo-European conquerers of the region from their point of origin; perhaps the coniferous forests bordering the steppes. This mushroom is mycorrhizal; it needs to grow among conifers which are its symbiotic host. So if Wasson's theory is correct, and this mushroom is Soma, this means that other things as well as this mushroom may have traveled along with it. Perhaps this puts the point of origin for the weapon somewhere in Asia, I would say close to Siberia (where shamanic use of Amanita Muscaria still continues.) It would appear to me that a slashing weapon such as this would be extremely effective from a speeding chariot running down infantry. The early Indo-Europeans were probably the fathers of chariot warfare, conquering as they went with their superior weaponry. Tom, what do you think about this? It's reaching far, but I wonder if this style of weapon came to the regions it was (and is) in from a different direction.


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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
Berkley: Yes, but bear in mind that prior to Wasson advancing the theory that Soma was Amanita Muscaria, nearly all scholars believed that Soma was the plant Sarcostemma, which is far from the inebrient described by the Rig Veda. I am probably wrong about the origins of the weapon, but it sure makes for some interesting speculation!
I just looked at the link; Oakeshotte does not say why he rejects this theory. Merely to reject it out of hand based on an opinion doesn't really disprove any following theories. Of course, I'd like to know what else he has to say. I doubt my theory is right, but if Wasson is correct about Soma, this could mean a lot of things traveled along with the Indo-Europeans that might not have been thought of.
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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry

[This message has been edited by Kevan Taylor-Perry (edited 10-08-2000).]
 
Well, as the Harvard website of the Wasson archives notes, Soma "stirred controversy among Vedic scholars", whatever its merits in ethnomycological studies. I tend to think that Oakeshott's considered conclusion after decades of study is more reliable than an extrapolation from a work whose primary concentration has nothing to do with weapons.
Then again, it was all somehat before even my time, so I really have no personal knowledge, and we all know what they say about opinions
smile.gif
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I pointed out that I am most likely wrong in my observation. The reason that Soma enters this discussion is because it is one of the few things in the Rig Veda,( one of the few accounts of the Indo-Europeans of their era), which has been discussed at length. I apologize if I came across as crass (did you notice that rhymes:-) I didn't mean to. I just think that it's a lot of fun to speculate on things, rather than dismiss them out of hand based on the writings of one man. This is why I do not say that Soma is Amanita Muscaria because Wasson said it was in his theory. I say it might be according to his theory. It could have very well been psilocybe mushroom seeing as how cattle are also discussed in the Rig Veda. But I digress. I think that the origins of this weapon merit more discussion.

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry

[This message has been edited by Kevan Taylor-Perry (edited 10-08-2000).]
 
Kevan,
I think that the origins of this weapon merit more discussion.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. Thanks for injecting a new and creative point of view. Sometimes my own training as an advocate who relies on precedent tends to make me unwilling to accept new insights, even when they have considerable merit.
And on reflection, I recall that this issue has been raised before, without, of course, being resolved.
Berk


[This message has been edited by Berkley (edited 10-08-2000).]
 
Thanks, Berkley, for the link. I'm relatively new here and it will be good to read the views of the "old hands." I'm still saving for that first khuk, Bill! I look at that brochure very night. Now I'm thinking the UBE will be my first. I've got to admit, Amanita Muscaria and khukuris on the same page is highly unusual. But, I'm an unusual guy!:-) (And for those wondering what an Amanita Muscaria is, it's the mushroom with the red cap and white dots on the cap.) Thanks to all who've posted (and future posters:-) :-):-)

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
Went back and reread the thread linked to where Tom Holt mentioned the Scythians.
Scythians/scythe?

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"The dumbest question is the one you didn't ask." JKM
Himalayan Imports Website
 
The Scythians (I believe they called themselves the Sons of Scoloti) are an example of the steppe peoples I'm thinking of with the Indo-Euopeans who swept into India and from whence we have the Rig Veda. A sidelight; the Scythians also used cannabis as the Indo-Europeans in the Rig Veda used Soma. Nothing to do with the subject at hand, but, threw it in for giggles!:-)

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
While we`re on the subject of obscure ancient weapons with foreward swept blades does anyone have any input on the 1st century Dacian falx or the Byzantine romphia? Relief carvings I`ve seen of the falx look like a cross between a 2+ handed khukuri and a sickle. The romphia looks similar but much larger. An interesting note is that the falx was said to cut through Roman lorica segmentata like a knife through butter! Marcus
 
I saw an illustration of that somewhere and forgot where, though I didn't know what it was called. I'd sure like to know more about it!

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
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