Fallkniven Laminated Blades

hstdist

hstdist

Joined
Apr 24, 2001
Messages
801
I can't see to find too much on the A2 Wilderness Knife or the Northern Lights Series.
The A2 would seem like a nice blade but does anyone have any first hand use with one? What about the Thor? The info I find about the VG10 420J laminate on the fourms doesn't sound great, but Fallkniven on their site is opposite to this and thier other stuff is good ( WM1 is the only one I have) So lets here about these blades so I can decide if its worth getting one
Thanks
 
Guess I'll wade in. I've used a dozen or so Helle laminated knives for several years with no complaints. These use a high carbon stainless sandwiched in between low carbon stainless (maybe same as found on table ware). The blades are usually only 1/8" thick or so but seem plenty strong. Seemingly, Fallkniven is buying their blades from the same Japanese manufacturer that makes the Cold Steel stainless stuff - just look at the Thor and the CS laminated stainless Trailmaster. I've heard no one speak of blade failures on these laminated blades. Considering the thickness of these blades you would have to be mucho abusive to bend/break one. I don't think you need to worry too much about delaminaion either. Maybe the laminated blades work better than the plain - maybe not. I like mine. I suspect the A2 will serve you well - buy it and enjoy using it.
 
Loki :


Considering the thickness of these blades you would have to be mucho abusive to bend/break one.
Click to expand...

Some laminates used very soft steel, even when the blades are thick they still have *very* low strength. 420J2 should be hard enough to give a decent amount of strength if it is fully hardened. But the blade will be no where near as strong as a full VG-10 blade.

-Cliff
 
Hi Cliff:

Perhaps you're right. I too would bet that a solid VG10 blade would be "stronger" than the laminate. I thought I'd read somewhere that laminate enabled more bending than breaking. I believe the Thor and CS laminated blades are quite thick/robust. Now I would have to work really hard to destroy one of these blades. Do you feel that the Fallkniven laminates are inherently inferior in some way? Is this laminate not suitable for usage as knife steel?
 
Hey Ken...

I've got one of these Fallkniven A2's coming very soon..

Very much looking forward in seeing this beast...


ttyle

Eric....
 
Loki :

Do you feel that the Fallkniven laminates are inherently inferior in some way? Is this laminate not suitable for usage as knife steel?
Click to expand...

To really get specific about the performance I would have to know the details on how thick the core is, as well as how hard the laminates are. The size of the core is critical in determing how close is acts to a pure VG-10 blade, or a AISI 420 one. However for heavy use knives, laminates in general don't interest me much.

The greatest real advantage of laminates is for high performance light use cutting knives. You have the edge holding and ease of crisp edge formation of a very hard and clean steel core, with the ease of machining of the softer main body laminates. The laminate would for example be very nice on the F1, WM etc. .

For larger blades the problems are lateral edge impacts and strong side loads. Get a very cheap stainless made in taiwan bowie and use it for awhile. Even though they are very thick, you can blow out the edge without difficulty, inducing quarter size dents and bending the blade isn't overly difficut either. The steel weakness is the part they don't tell you about with laminates.

Can you cut something with the laminated bowie and not have it explode - yes of course you can. However if it was all VG-10 could you run it with a thinner edge than if a lot of the edge was AISI 420, yes you can. This limits the cutting ability of the knife if you are going to be using it for heavy contacts which could induce edge rippling.

Can the laminated bowie flex more than the VG-10 one - yes. So could one made out of pure AISI 420. Are both of these significantly weaker than a solid VG-10 one - yes.

-Cliff
 
SO the hype or reason for these blades in the laminate over a solid VG10 is because?
 
I got a Thor a week ago and I am reeeeaaally disapointed with it. I went out in the woods for a couple of days and took it with me to try it. First thing I did with it was trying to cut a bone in two, for my dogs. After two chops and NO DAMAGE TO THE BONE AT ALL I looked at the adge and it was not aligned any more (don´t know the word to say it). It did sort of an S at the impact zone. I took out my Sh-E and chopped it at once.
Then I split a log, as I needed some dry kindling. When I inserted the tip in the heart of the split log and tried to pry out some wood... the tip broke!!. It was just dead pine and the tip of my so called absolutely tough knife was still in there!!. After that I put it in my pack and worked with my Sh-E.
I must say that I have done that technique of prying out dry wood with LOTS of much cheaper knives with a similar tip geometry (so it´s no good saying that the tip is not intended for that work or something). It is my first and last fallkniven, and I am sure they make good knives, but I don´t accept that bullshit of propaganda of toughness in a 350$ knife. Sorry, but no way. The only knife I can remember that broke doing that is a Tigershark, and then, it took me about 50 times of doing it to break it. I do not recomend that NL series to anyone seriously intrested in knives for use.
Sorry for the tone of the post, but I am really pissed off (wouldn´t any of you be? ).
Jaime.
 
I would not surprise me if the edge dented or rippled on bone if a significant part of it is formed by the 420. However while I would expect the tip to be fairly easy to bend, it looks like a thin clip point, it should be fairly flexible so I would expect it to take a set rather than snap suddenly. In any case I would suggest you contact Fallkniven and see if what you saw was the expected performance. They are online, so it will only take a few seconds.

-Cliff
 
Dear Jaime,

thanks for your input, we're sorry to hear about your bad experiences with the Thor knife.

They are not matching our own experiences, really not, but we respect your opinions and do appreciate for being able to assist you.

We newly made a test of the edge hardness and found that the hardness of the edge was around HRC 60, hard enough for most tasks. Yet we haven't tested the NL1 Thor Knife on bones and for being honest, none of our knives are being designed for chopping bones and still come out razor sharp. Chopping bones will for sure ruin any edge and we don't advice our customers to use any knives that way.

Most knives are not designed for chopping bones but a combination of a very thick edge and a good steel may work well for this specific purpose, in Europe we call such blades "cleavers". I Scandinavia we usually use saws for parting bones, not even axes, since we know that bones are very hard and tough.

The Thor Knife is designed to work as an all-purpose camp knife, for heavy chopping, breaking, cutting, slicing etc. The edge will stand all these tasks and the point will not break, no matter how hard you press the knife. The one that complains upon a lost point of 1/25" of length is the same person that complains if the same point is bent. We all have to understand that the point of a blade is the weakest part and if you abuse it, it will break or bend. If it is doesn't, it's too thick and cannot be resharpened by the same person. So, there are always something wrong!

Since you seems to be disappointed on your Thor knife, we wonder if you could be without it for a week or two? We would be grateful if we were allowed to check your knife and test it - we will pay for all your costs if you send the knife+sheath as a full value registered air mail to

Fallkniven AB
Havrevagen 10
S-961 42 Boden
Sweden

Write outside the parcel: "Knife for warranty matters" for avoiding any problems with the customs.

It would be great if we were able to see the wreck.

Regarding the strength of a laminated blade: Our tests at the Technical University of Lulea show upon an extra break strength of +20 % compared to a solid VG10 blade. This extra strength along with the superior VG10 steel should really be interesting for those who demand good and reliable knives. Still we don't say that our knives are the best for all possible tasks (noone does), really not, there are still many factors to consider, and for various tasks there might be possible to find knives which are better depending on differences in steel, edge geometry, blade length etc. But all in all...

Take care

Peter Hjortberger
Fallkniven AB
 
Well, there you go! It sounds to me like peter is on top of the problem. Jaime, send in the knife and see what happens. I bet you will be pleasantly pleased.
 
Peter, are the particulars of those tests avalible on line? I would very much like to know the details of how the tests were conducted. Thanks!
- Frank.
 
Frank,

If you mean the break tests, we're showing how the tests are being made and what equipment we're using, please enter our website www.fallkniven.com and go for BREAK TEST for more information.

We newly tested the edge hardness and picked two NL1 samples right out of the production. The hardness was closer to HRC 60 than 59.

We will submit the information about the F1 with laminated VG10 on our internet site, hopefully during Monday 19 August.

If I've been unclear, please repeat your question or send an inquiry directly to info@fallkniven.se .

Take care

Peter Hjortberger
 
Peter, thank you for your reply and link, you have answered most of my questions - perfectly clearly!
I do have one more question: were the bending moments needed to put a permanent bend in the blades (in other words the bending yield point) recorded?, or just the breaking points (utlimate bending strength) as given on the web site?
Thanks again!

- Frank
 
Frank,

I'm not sure that I understand your questions right (due to my bad knowledge in the English language) but the tests of all our blades are made till they actually break. We haven't measured at which power they started to receive a permanent bend.

Yet, since both steels (VG10 and 420J2) take heat treating, both get springy and don't take bent shape very easy. The 420J2 is around HRC 54 and the VG10 around HRC 59-60 and at these hardnesses, both steels will flex very well and go back to true.

The laminated steel is around 20 % stronger but acts in a different way compared to solid VG10. The solid VG10 is very stiff and don't bend much before it breaks but is still very strong. The laminated VG10 will bend more before it breaks and I think this offers a more distinct signal to the user that he is approaching the limit for the knife.

I think the laminated VG10 blade offers a good value for money with regards to edge retention and strength and since the 420J2 is as close to rust proof as you can get, I think the laminated VG10 is something to consider.

Take care

Peter Hjortberger
 
Dear Peter, thank you very much for the attention paid to my post. I look forward to sending the knife to you. Any company can make a mistake, but the way to resolve it makes the difference. Also, the mistake may be mine, but I insist I have done much harder work with cheaper knives than yours and could perfectly stand it. Hope there is a manufacturing problem, because I expect much more from your blades. We´ll see.
Thank you very much again for your preofessionality.
Yours,
Jaime.
 
Peter, I would debate comparing the tensile strengths, at the very least the yield points should be noted. At the point at which AISI 420 has taken a perm bend, I assume the VG-10 would return to true. Now consider what this means to the edge if it takes a lateral impact say off a knot.

Also consider that for many people, a bent blade is just as much of a failure as a broken one. Debatable yes, but the information should be there for those of that mind. If the laminate has a greater yield strength as well, well then is it pretty much directly superior.

In any case, it is nice to see a calm responce to some fairly harsh comments. I have see this denegrate quite quicky too often.

-Cliff
 
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