Faux forge finish.

jdm61

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
47,357
What is up with the proliferation of stock removal knives with a faux forged finish on the flats? Man, that's a lot of words starting with the letter F. :D But seriously, what is the attraction? I have seen websites where the knives are clearly being made via stock removal from PG bar stock. They show almost all of the process of making the knife and yet when they are done, they have the dimples. :confused:
 
Easier to sell. The idea of grinding a knife out doesn't occur to a lot of people. Most of them think if its hand made it must be forged, and thus any knife not forged was not hand made.

THe way I see it, if it pays, by all means!
 
While I feel that the REAL forged finished has been overused a tad, I can understand it. Not so much with a knife that hasn't seen a hammer ever. How are these finishes done? It the "scale" left over from HT or is it some kind of applied oil finish done during tempering? Are the dings done by hammer, rotary tool, etc?
 
Some guys have very specifically designed patterns. I think some are copyrighted. Hey, if it sells knives, good on them.:D I am just one of those weirdos that forges and then does everything in my power during the finishing process to disguise that fact other than perhaps some basic design elements like things that could only be done by heating and bending or squishing stuff. I was just wondering how this particular design/finish caught on? I wonder the same thing about forged knives with rough finishes where the maker is not going for some specific design/construction element like a forged finger guard a la Joe Keeslar.
E.Carlson said:
I think some folks use a homemade stamp with a random-ish pattern on it.
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I think some texture - not necessarily something made to resemble forging marks - adds to the visual appeal by creating a contrast. In my opinion, when it is done tastefully (for example Fiddleback), it looks great and makes them 'pop' a bit in photos.

I'm doing tumbled flats with belt-ground bevels. It really helps the photos pop, draws the eye to the grind line, and emphasizes the bevel and point - especially on thumbnail and phone-sized pics. When I switched to this finish style, there was a big increase in social media 'likes' and positive comments. I see tastefully done textures on flats as an extension of this. However, more is not more - when it is overdone it doesn't look good IMO.
 
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Dimples are cute.

I do agree that texture can add a lot of neat contrast and visual appeal to a knife, but when a stock removal blade is deliberately made to look like it has been forged, as if, perhaps to mislead the customer into thinking it was forged, then I start to question the motives a bit.

In the ABS, the bylaws specifically state that a maker may not put a JS or MS stamp on a blade if that blade was not actually forged. Seems pretty straightforward, but is this rule always being followed? And for that matter, what does "forged" even mean? And what's up with all these worms in the can I just opened up?
 
One piece of my curiosity may be driven by the fact that I generally don't leave flats on the blade. It is interesting that you get more response when you apply that particular type of finish. Clearly there is a cool factor involved for the potential customer. My question may be a philosophical one in asking how did this develop over the last few years? I appears to line up with the more general "clearly handmade" phenomenon we have seen in the craft world in the last decade where rustic can be seen to equal artistic/artisanal.
P.Brewster said:
I think some texture - not necessarily something made to resemble forging marks - adds to the visual appeal by creating a contrast. In my opinion, when it is done tastefully (for example Fiddleback), it looks great and makes them 'pop' a bit in photos.

I'm doing tumbled flats with belt-ground bevels. It really helps the photos pop, draws the eye to the grind line, and emphasizes the bevel and point - especially on thumbnail and phone-sized pics. When I switched to this finish style, there was a big increase in social media 'likes' and positive comments. I see tastefully done textures on flats as an extension of this. However, more is not more - when it is overdone it doesn't look good IMO.
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You can't call yourself a bladesmith unless you have some forge marks on your blade, right?
 
Let me add one more thought to the question...Is just taking a bar of steel, clipping the point and forging in the edge alone a forged knife? I see that all the time too..Folks cut out a blank,shape it completely and then forge the bevels only. Is that still a "forged" knife?
 
agreed, I think the visual contrast sells. There's a certain perceived 'ruggedness' in the forged and faux-forged finishes contrasting with clean, bright grinds that is quite appealing, even to me. I like leaving (stock removal) quench finishes on 1084 sometimes for the same reason (also when feeling lazy about hand-sanding!). Some people like knives that have been made out of files or other reused material that looks like they were scraped on a curb stone for shaping... not my thing. To non-enthusiasts, hand-polished FFG's often just appeal as 'shiny', with no appreciation of the effort and attention to detail required.
 
Kentucky said:
Let me add one more thought to the question...Is just taking a bar of steel, clipping the point and forging in the edge alone a forged knife? I see that all the time too..Folks cut out a blank,shape it completely and then forge the bevels only. Is that still a "forged" knife?
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That just seems backwards. Forging to shape seems easier to me. It's getting my bevels just right that kills me.

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jdm61 said:
What is up with the proliferation of stock removal knives with a faux forged finish on the flats? Man, that's a lot of words starting with the letter F. :D But seriously, what is the attraction? I have seen websites where the knives are clearly being made via stock removal from PG bar stock. They show almost all of the process of making the knife and yet when they are done, they have the dimples. :confused:
Click to expand...

I started doing this years ago for two reasons. I liked the visual appeal, and it kept me from EVER having to sand the flats. Its so easy to finish a textured surface because you only have to finish the high spots. I do this at an 8" x 1" scotchbrite wheel on a speed controlled bench grinder. Literally, I can finish the flats on several knives per minute with this method. Almost all of my process is designed for efficiency, when I teach it, I call it 'the easy way'. Once I figured this out, I developed a technique to make the flats look like burnt skin, then named it 3D (for 3D burned) Spalted Steel. The name caught on and has helped me sell knives. I find naming things (models, features, whatever) on a knife helps them sell. The market likes to memorize the names. I learned that from watching Jerry Busse. So your answer from the perspective of my business is almost all of the above ideas. (I don't act like they are forged though. I named my business before I started selling knives. At that time I forged the blades. I quickly learned how much more efficient and repeatable it is (for me) to use the stock removal method. YMMV.)

Edited to add some pics:

IMG_8661-vi.jpg


IMG_8762-vi.jpg
 
Almost every customer I have requests the knife have forged flats. I will be honest in that I do prefer them, aesthetically and making them. It does give the blade a striking contract and gives the knife more character. Every knife is unique that way and doesnt look like it came off an assembly line. I was working on a knife just today with ironwood and copper liners and must admit popped so well with the black of the forged ricasso in a way I dont think it would with everything polished.

I would not enjoy making knives nearly as much if I was using stock removal only. You cant go down to Walmart or Bass Pro and find a truly forged knife and I think customers appreciate that as something you can only get from someone who is forging a knife from start to finish. I also think it highlights the makers unique set of skills with a hammer and anvil, and not just plugging numbers into a CNC. Now, why all of a sudden did the general public come to appreciate that I have no idea. I was not around for a time where forged flats were not popular, or at least I was not aware of it, because I have always liked them.

On the subject of faux forged flats, I am not a fan. The knife is pretending to be something that it isnt. I'm sure some people wont like that opinion, and if it sells I wouldnt expect them to do any different, but there is no other reason to texture the knife in that way other than to imitate a forged knife when it isnt.
 
I like the blade shape of the top knife. :thumbup: As for me, I have only made like 20 stock removal knives and they were almost all made from 3V or AEB-L. Didn't; want to hit that stuff for fear of messing it up!. I have done 21 full tang knives. Yeah, I do the ABS 101 thing. ;) I forge because i enjoy it, plus it is the only way to make my own damascus. I aldo haver a big pile of W2 that is neither thin nor flat. With that said, i am clearly limiting my options by just doing that, especially when it come to kitchen knives. Lots of folks want stainless.
Fiddleback said:
I started doing this years ago for two reasons. I liked the visual appeal, and it kept me from EVER having to sand the flats. Its so easy to finish a textured surface because you only have to finish the high spots. I do this at an 8" x 1" scotchbrite wheel on a speed controlled bench grinder. Literally, I can finish the flats on several knives per minute with this method. Almost all of my process is designed for efficiency, when I teach it, I call it 'the easy way'. Once I figured this out, I developed a technique to make the flats look like burnt skin, then named it 3D (for 3D burned) Spalted Steel. The name caught on and has helped me sell knives. I find naming things (models, features, whatever) on a knife helps them sell. The market likes to memorize the names. I learned that from watching Jerry Busse. So your answer from the perspective of my business is almost all of the above ideas. (I don't act like they are forged though. I named my business before I started selling knives. At that time I forged the blades. I quickly learned how much more efficient and repeatable it is (for me) to use the stock removal method. YMMV.)

Edited to add some pics:

IMG_8661-vi.jpg


IMG_8762-vi.jpg
Click to expand...
 
The big thing with me is not the finish its that most of the time these blades are passed off or even called forged blades. This just rubs me the wrong way like when people call them selves custom knife makers when thy just put together a kit. I have put in alot of time and energy to have the skills I do (good or bad) and it's disrespectful to actual bladesmith like me who forge blades from large chunks of steel. I'm sorry but this topic has bothered me for awhile.

But back to the finish, yes it does produce a neat contrast in surface finishes. The way I feel is just because something is forged does not give permission or excepatance of shoddy fit and finish. I take great pride in forging as accurately as I can so I can remove all the forging imperfections in the cleanup stage. If your specifically after that finish for the design the more power to you. But don't use the "it's forged" as an excuse to be lazy.
 
To the best of my recollection, the first "modern" forge finished custom that I saw was the J.P. Moss bowie used in the movie "Unforgiven"back in 1992. I googled it and the rustic finish was clearly "enhanced' It looks like some kind of punch was used. The interesting part is what while flats are rough and the handle and guard are made to look a bit old timey, the "clean" parts of the the blade like the bevels, clip and spine have a very nice hand rubbed finish.
 
JTknives said:
The big thing with me is not the finish its that most of the time these blades are passed off or even called forged blades. This just rubs me the wrong way like when people call them selves custom knife makers when thy just put together a kit. I have put in alot of time and energy to have the skills I do (good or bad) and it's disrespectful to actual bladesmith like me who forge blades from large chunks of steel. I'm sorry but this topic has bothered me for awhile.

But back to the finish, yes it does produce a neat contrast in surface finishes. The way I feel is just because something is forged does not give permission or excepatance of shoddy fit and finish. I take great pride in forging as accurately as I can so I can remove all the forging imperfections in the cleanup stage. If your specifically after that finish for the design the more power to you. But don't use the "it's forged" as an excuse to be lazy.
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I hope you know that I never pass my knives off as forged.
 
Oh no I never thought you did For one sec. I'm sorry if I came across that way. Your knives are really nice by the way. I just mean I see it happen, and I see it happen here in the forsale section and it's just wrong.
 
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