Fear mongers strike again…

UffDa

UffDa

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Fear mongers strike again…

My wife went to the grand opening of a Walgreen’s. They had some nice 32 oz. And 74 oz. polycarbonate bottles on sale. These are made by DSC Products in the USA. I was using Google to look for an insulated bag for the smaller bottle and came across a bunch of sites spreading crap about Lexan, polycarbonate and Nalgene.

Basically, a researcher cleaned some polycarbonate water bottles with a strong cleaner and they appeared to release enough BPA to cause problems with their lab mice. Based on this, the fear mongers are warning about the use of Nalgene and other polycarbonate food containers. You may remember that they did the same thing with Saran wrap which turned out to be toro caca.

While it would probably be a good idea to avoid bleach and other harsh cleaners in any plastic container, I don’t see how enough of the chemicals would be released to cause a real problem. I have polycarbonate water jugs that are between 10 and 15 years old. There are no signs of deterioration. No discoloration and no smells or tastes. Of course, they have been used for drinking water only.

This is just FYI. I thought this might of interest.
 
Like the old Joe Jackson song says, "everything... gives you cancer".

Here in CA, warnings are found everywhere. I was in the garden center looking at the Fiskars loppers. Sure enough, warning label says they're made from materials determined to give me cancer. At least in CA. Maybe they're safe to use in NV? Or maybe they're made from plutonium? And here, I always thought the biggest danger from loppers was the possibility of accidentally snipping off a finger. Of course, they're not dangerous enough to actually keep off the market, though that may happen soon.

And just a couple minutes ago, I was reading this rant,

In an attempt to curb the production of crystal meth, more than 30 states have now outlawed or require registration for common lab equipment. In Texas, you need to register the purchase of Erlenmeyer flasks or three-necked beakers. The same state where I do not have to register a handgun, forces me to register a glass beaker.
Click to expand...

America has scared itself silly, and asks for more.
 
I was reading a news article about a woman who apprehended another woman who stole her identity. It's a long story, but it involves the first woman chasing the identity thief for something like 45 minutes through San Francisco, all the while frantically asking 911 to get her a cop.

45 minutes for a cop in San Francisco?

Anyway, apparently the identity thief has repeatedly targeted this woman, to the point where the woman has had to give up 10's of thousands of dollars in contracting fees because she's constantly fighting with the banks and credit card companies over what the thief has been doing to her. In the end, the cops came and took the thief away, who was then thrown in jail, who was then found guilty of identity theft and violating her parole. The judge sentenced the thief to time served, put her on probation (which she was already on, so obviously no deterrent) and let her go. The thief gave the woman, her victim, a cheerful and derisive wave, by way of letting the poor woman know that the game wasn't over.

Later, I was reading how no cop anywhere in the US has a legal obligation to protect anyone, meanwhile cities (in CA) routinely prevent people from getting the tools necessary to defend themselves.

And even if you do defend yourself from a determined attacker, chances are pretty good that either the victim (or his family) or the state or both will take you to court over it.

Something happened in this country to turn us all into helpless victims.

We have reason to be afraid.

But, hey, at least people in 40 other states have the legal right to carry a gun. Not so in much of CA, but at least you've got that going for you.

You know, I think the state wants you to be afraid. It makes you more helpless and dependent, and that only increases everyone's budgets.
 
Uffda, There are chemicals in plastics and some are leached out .Saran wrap has a plasticizer[which leaches out] so a Glad wrap food grade polyethelene is a much better choice.A friend did testing at a company ,on the plastic Coke Cola bottles and found chemicals would leach out . They recommended to Coke Cola don't use it . CC used it anyway. There can also be a significant difference between grades - food grade plastics are always better. It's not a myth those chemicals can cause allergic reactions ,effect flavor of the product and of course add to the very long list of chemicals that enter our bodies. ACS says since 1965 8 million new chemicals have been invented , 70,000 used regularly .You should be aware that all immune system problems ,cancer allergies etc, continue to rise as our immune system has to deal with an ever increasing load from chemicals !!
 
Mete:

You are correct, but as with almost everything, opinions vary. It’s true that Saran wrap can leach out plasticizers, but what the fear mongers don’t tell you as it only does this at very high temperatures. Soft drinks like Coke contain some pretty caustic chemicals. I don’t drink that stuff anymore, but not because of the chemicals.

I was just pointing out that someone will find fault with just about anything and for whatever reason will cry, “The sky is falling”. Just about everything around us is made of some sort of plastic.

None of us going to get out of here alive. Why worry? ;)
 
UffDa said:
Fear mongers strike again…Basically, a researcher cleaned some polycarbonate water bottles with a strong cleaner and they appeared to release enough BPA to cause problems with their lab mice. Based on this, the fear mongers are warning about the use of Nalgene and other polycarbonate food containers.
Click to expand...
The cleaner used at Case-Western Reserve University was strong - so is dish washer detergent.

The water was very hot. You can duplicate that in most dishwashers by using the "heat water" option.

The results were duplicated at several universities around the world. (Google anyone?), and BPA is serious shit vis-a-vis birth defects.

However, I was advised by a knowledgable university prof to just wash with liquid dish soap and warm water = no problems. He uses Lexan PC bottles by Nalgene. He does not store water in Lexan - uses 2 ltr. pop bottles instead (apparently a different plastic).

I don’t see how enough of the chemicals would be released to cause a real problem.
Click to expand...
Duplicate what the universities did. Not an issue if you're not makin' babies.

I have polycarbonate water jugs that are between 10 and 15 years old. There are no signs of deterioration. No discoloration and no smells or tastes. Of course, they have been used for drinking water only.
Click to expand...
Me too.

When the media blow their EOTW horns, I pay little attention.

Some site/blog (or 2 or 3 or X) is/are always "screaming" about something that will kill us (or the EOTWAWKI).

Somehow, we live longer than ever (until we stop).
 
mete said:
You should be aware that all immune system problems ,cancer allergies etc, continue to rise as our immune system has to deal with an ever increasing load from chemicals !!
Click to expand...

Sorry - this is not a scientifically supportable statement. People got lots of cancer, immune deficiencies, allergies, etc. long before "chemicals" were in use. Most of the medical problems we deal with in medicine were first described centuries or millenia ago. And people in techologically advanced (read chemically advanced) societies live longer and far more healthfully than their ancestors did. There are a very few known medical problems assocated with a very few well defined chemical exposures. The rest is unsupported by any form of reliable research (which means it is about as reliable as people 200 years ago thinking disease was caused by "vapors").

And here is the most important rule of thumb I have ever come across for use in evaluating the relevance of medical research:

Mice ain't people. Neither are rats, monkeys, worms, birds, etc. Sometimes even people ain't people...
 
I wonder if micarta and other phenolic resins leech toxins?:eek: :eek: :eek:

Though I guess we'll be ok as long as we don't suck on our knife handles after heating them in the fire.
 
Not supportable ??? Gee when I read medical journals they give the figures for various diseases .All immune system numbers have risen greatly. The chemical exposures are additive since the immune system must deal with all of them...Once rare hermorphrodite fish in UK are now found in every river [estrogen like chemicals].Some years ago thosands of seals died in Sweden ,attributed to all the air and water pollution in the Baltic weakening the immune systems.The seals in cleaner Norway didn't have the problem.While it may be difficult to pinpoint ONE chemical to cause one specific problem [though it has been done] the statistics tell the story. Plasticizers in blood plasma bags during the Viet Nam war were found to cause specific problems .Etc , etc.We live in a chemical soup and it does have it's effect.
 
mete, the shemale fish are becuase the UK has lousy enforcement of their industrial run off. Unless you do something stupid like put a Nalgene on a fire, or clean it with steel wool and/or a strong corrosive/caustic, you're fine.

Water CAN NOT be heated to greater than 100*C at one atmosphere. Lab samples are frequently heated to this temperature to render them inert, in polycarb sample tubes. The lab techs I know have never heard credible story of BPA contamination from this procedure. There is another thread around here just a few days ago. YES, there is a potential, very low but statistically calculable, that BPA could leach into water from a GOOD polycarb bottle (don't waste your time with the knock offs, they suck in terms of durability), but it would be in such low amount that an adult human would have no worries. There is also a statistically calculable risk you will swallow your tongue in your sleep any given night.

I wouldn't recommend them for an infant or toddler, and limit their use by boys in their tweens, but for an adult they are OK. More than a few of the people hired to do research on this by the people who wanted to sue Nalgene over this "issue" laughed after the results were in. This is the same "issue" with PVC- don't let your baby chew on the softened stuff, it can't be legally brought into the US any more becuase that DOES leach BPA. But schedule 40 or 80 water pipe is harmless.

If you want to look for a cause for cancer, let's look at atmospheric pollutants and add in that we are now able to spot most tumors at a size that would have made an oncologist pop a tent 20 years ago.
 
I did a Google, and I am rethinking my Nalgene bottles, although it would seem that they are hardly the only place where I might encounter BPA.

From the Centers for Disease Control website:

"'Inherently toxic' chemical faces its future

The Globe and Mail (04/07/07) Martin Mittelstaedt

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070406.wbisphenolA0407/BNStory/Front/

Bisphenol A, a chief ingredient in plastic products, could become the next chemical to embroil industry and public health in debate over the impact of scientific findings. The chemical, derived from petroleum, is found in products including baby bottles, tin cans, and dental sealants, and has been found to leach into bottle and can contents. Research conducted in the United States has suggested that about 95 percent of the population has been exposed to the chemical, and Canadian researchers are currently conducting a survey in that country. Last year, Environment Canada and Health Canada selected bisphenol A as one of 200 substances deemed possibly dangerous and in need of thorough safety assessments. Of about 150 studies conducted by independent researchers (not affiliated with the plastics industry), around 90 percent have found bisphenol A to cause adverse effects in research animals, ranging from enlarged prostates to abnormal breast tissue growth. A small number of studies have linked bisphenol A exposure to human health outcomes such as miscarriages and ovarian dysfunction. Independent researchers say they are shocked by the ability of the chemical to produce such results, and have rushed to remove any trace of it from their personal lives. "I would love to see it banished off the face of the Earth," said Dr. Patricia Hunt, a Washington State University geneticist. But none of the major industry studies assessing bisphenol A's safety found any adverse reaction, and industry representatives say the chemical is harmless. Currently, Canada has no regulations limiting bisphenol A leakage. A class-action lawsuit against five baby bottle manufacturers was filed last month in Los Angeles. [emphasis added]"

Do I recall correctly that the tobacco industry also reminded us that we are neither rats nor mice?

ED:

Someone has noticed:


SUMMARY: CERHR [CDC, Center for the Valuation of Risks to Human Reproduction] announces the second meeting of the CERHR Expert Panel
on Bisphenol A on August 6-8, 2007, at the Hilton Alexandria Old Town
in Alexandria, VA. This meeting is open to the public with time
scheduled for oral public comment. Attendance is limited only by the
available meeting space.

DATES: The second expert panel meeting on bisphenol A will be held
August 6-8, 2007. The interim draft expert panel report containing
sections 1-4 is currently available for public comment [Federal
Register, May 1, 2007 (Vol. 72, No. 83, pages 23833-4)]. Written public
comments on the interim draft report must be received by June 20, 2007.
July 30, 2007 is the deadline for pre-registration to attend the
meeting, to pre-register to provide oral comments, and to submit
written materials intended to supplement the oral remarks.

ADDRESSES: The second expert panel meeting will be held at the Hilton
Alexandria Old Town, 1767 King Street, Alexandria, VA (located across
the street from the King Street Metro Stop). Written comments should be
sent to Dr. Michael D. Shelby, CERHR Director [NIEHS, P.O. Box 12233,
MD EC-32, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 (mail), (919) 316-4511
(fax), or shelby@niehs.nih.gov (e-mail)]. Courier address: CERHR, 79
T.W. Alexander Drive, Building 4401, Room 103, Research Triangle Park,
NC 27709.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Dr. Michael D. Shelby, CERHR Director,
919-541-3455, shelby@niehs.nih.gov.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Background

CERHR convened the expert panel on March 5-7, 2007 to complete its
report on the potential reproductive and developmental hazards of
bisphenol A. The panel discussed and made revisions to the draft expert
panel report, but because of the length and complexity of this
evaluation, the panel was unable to complete its task. Information
about the meeting and the draft interim expert panel report, which
shows all edits to date, are available on the CERHR Web site (http://cerhr.niehs.nih.gov/chemicals/bisphenol/bisphenol.html
).

The expert panel will reconvene on August 6-8, 2007, for a second
meeting at the Hilton Alexandria Old Town, 1767 King Street,
Alexandria, VA. The meeting will begin each day at 8:30 a.m. and
continue until adjournment. It is anticipated to adjourn by noon on
August 8, although adjournment may occur earlier or later depending
upon the time needed for the expert panel to complete its work. The
expert panel will (1) continue its review, (2) finalize sections 1-4 of
the draft report, (3) reach conclusions regarding whether exposure to
bisphenol A is a hazard to human reproduction or development, and (4)
write Section 5 Summary, Conclusions, and Critical Data Needs. The
interim draft report will serve as the starting point for the expert
panel's discussions at its August meeting.

Bisphenol A (CAS RN: 80-5-07) is a high production volume chemical
used in the production of epoxy resins, polyester resins, polysulfone
resins, polyacrylate resins, polycarbonate plastics, and flame
retardants. Polycarbonate plastics are used in food and drink
packaging; resins are used as lacquers to coat metal products such as
food cans, bottle tops, and water supply pipes. Some polymers used in
dental sealants and tooth coatings contain bisphenol A. Exposure to the
general population can occur through direct contact to bisphenol A or
by exposure to food or drink that has been in contact with a material
containing bisphenol A. CERHR selected this chemical for evaluation
because of (1) high production volume, (2) widespread human exposure,
(3) evidence of reproductive toxicity in laboratory animal studies, and
(4) public concern.

Request for Comments

The CERHR again invites written public comments on the interim
draft expert panel report on bisphenol A. All

[[Page 33229]]
 
I also speak from personal experience. I did test a bunch of different plastic bottles .Washed them carefully [detergent], put cold water [from my well] in the bottle ,let stand at room temperature for 24 hours, then test by taking a sip and holding in my mouth for 1-2 minutes .I would get an allergic reaction [and taste the chemical] from most plastics though not PC !! So plain water leaches chemicals out of most plastics !!! Plastics for food should be FDA grade but I wouldn't count on that either. But then there's always stainless steel or titanium ! Aluminum may have coatings like beer cans.
 
bulgron said:
I was reading a news article about a woman who apprehended another woman who stole her identity. It's a long story, but it involves the first woman chasing the identity thief for something like 45 minutes through San Francisco, all the while frantically asking 911 to get her a cop.

45 minutes for a cop in San Francisco?

Anyway, apparently the identity thief has repeatedly targeted this woman, to the point where the woman has had to give up 10's of thousands of dollars in contracting fees because she's constantly fighting with the banks and credit card companies over what the thief has been doing to her. In the end, the cops came and took the thief away, who was then thrown in jail, who was then found guilty of identity theft and violating her parole. The judge sentenced the thief to time served, put her on probation (which she was already on, so obviously no deterrent) and let her go. The thief gave the woman, her victim, a cheerful and derisive wave, by way of letting the poor woman know that the game wasn't over.

Later, I was reading how no cop anywhere in the US has a legal obligation to protect anyone, meanwhile cities (in CA) routinely prevent people from getting the tools necessary to defend themselves.

And even if you do defend yourself from a determined attacker, chances are pretty good that either the victim (or his family) or the state or both will take you to court over it.

Something happened in this country to turn us all into helpless victims.

We have reason to be afraid.

But, hey, at least people in 40 other states have the legal right to carry a gun. Not so in much of CA, but at least you've got that going for you.

You know, I think the state wants you to be afraid. It makes you more helpless and dependent, and that only increases everyone's budgets.
Click to expand...



"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and
thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series
of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H. L. Mencken
 
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