Fehrman questions

[MVF]

I just received my new Peacemaker and I've got say that so far I'm impressed. The fit and finish is much better than what I've been getting on even much more expensive knives. The knife was very sharp, though somehow it wouldn't shave(?). The attention to detail that shows in the bevelled edges and smooth corners definitely gives an impression of quality. The grip fits my medium/small sized hand well and the balance is well back in the hand (@ 1" from the start of the blade). Everything on this knife looks and feels good. The sheath also appears to be very good quality, although I don't really care for pouch type sheaths, and will probably replace it.

Oh, yeah- my question. Most of my experience so far with hard use knives has been with Busse & Swamp Rat. The Peacemaker has a much thinner edge than my other knives. I like this so far because of the improved slicing ability and it is one reason I bought it, but now that I have it, I'm a little worried- especially after re-reading Cliff Stamp's review and mention of these blades chipping. So, since there hasn't been anything in this forum for awhile about Fehrmans-

Has anyone had any problems with their Fehrmans? What, and how did it happen? Was it covered by the company?

Any sharpening issues/tips?

I really like this knife and if it holds up as well as I hope, I want to get another Fehrman- would you suggest the 5.5" or the 7'?

TIA,
Mike

 

[bigbcustom]

Let me preface the following by saying that I don't have a fehrman knife, never have had one, but I definitely intend to have one in the not so distant future.

Cliff tested the extreme judgement, which is a wide blade with a thin edge which, unless I am mistaken, is supposed to be a fighter. With Cliff's testing methodology, and preferred mediums, a thin edge is doomed to failure in most knives. The final judgement, first strike, and last chance would, IMHO, fare better in Cliff's destructathon. (little side bar here lest someone misinterpret my phraseology. I think that the way Cliff tests knives gives us some sometimes valuable insight into how far a knife will go, and what kind of crazy stuff can be done with/to a knife. I think that he should test knives more in accordance with their intended purposes, but he is the one that spends the time and money, ergo, he decides on the methodology and mediums. Regardless of some of his detractors, and worshippers, I think that he does have some valuable information and insights to share, and I think that he is an honest man.....I disagree with many things he does, but I respect his forthright and honest (IMHO of course) reporting.)...end side bar.

I have had occassion to email back and forth with Eric Fehrman about his knives, bevel angles, etc., and I have found him to be knowledgable, courteous, and timely in his correspondence. Part of Cliff's revue speaks to the warranty issue....they warranted the blade for Cliff....that should tell you where they stand in that regard.

As for your next Fehrman knife purchase question, since you already have a small, detail work knife from them, I might suggest, if you don't already have one from another company, the final judgement 9" chopper. I plan on the last chance being my first purchase from them as I already have 15 or more large chopper style blades in my collection, and the idea of a short (relatively) stout bladed knife floats my boat, and I don't have one yet lol. I don't think you could go wrong with one of their knives.

 

[Danbo]

First off, you can't judge any knife by Cliff's testing. Cliff does things to knives, that nobody needs to do to their knives.

Fehrman knives are great knives; I have about 5 of them. Some of them have edges a tad too thick to be ideal, IMHO, but they're still quite sharp. I haven't found anything wrong with a Fehrman knife, that a little reprofiling wouldn't take care of.

 

[MVF]

I already have a Busse Fusion Steel Heart, a Battle Mistress on the way, and a Swamp Rat Battle Rat, so my "big chopper" needs are pretty well covered- not that I may not eventually get the big Fehrman anyway!

The thing I was trying to figure out was whether the 5.5" blade was too close to the Peacemaker and so I should get the 7" first, or since I like the Peacemaker I should get the 5.5" knife first. I know nobody else can decide for me, but I am hoping to get some impressions from those that own them to help with the decision.

Cliff's "extreme" side is why I didn't let his review stop me from getting the Peacemaker (I don't intend to baton it into any knots), but when I re-read his review, I noticed where he said "repeatedly chipped out" and that worried me. It seems if Danbo thins his edges even further, that my concern is probably unnecessary!

I think these knives are really undernoticed- the value/price ratio seems much better than many more popular knives. Maybe they need to get a forum going- you sure don't see many going up for sale!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff's "extreme" side is why I didn't let his review stop me from getting the Peacemaker (I don't intend to baton it into any knots)

3V is a high shock steel, constantly promoted as approaching the shock resistance of S7, which is used in jackhammer bits, there is no way you could argue anything I did was abusive. If you are not even going to baton the steel into knots then there is no reason to actually look at 3V because you obviously don't need a high shock steel.

I noticed where he said "repeatedly chipped out" and that worried me.

That didn't concern me as much as the fact that the primary grind bent. The edge chipping was a combination of the very rough initial grind and the fact that a lot of initial edges are weak due to overheating and other factors. Often the performance increases significantly with a full sharpening including a relief grind to lower the shock on the edge during the chopping. However I wanted to give the initial as stock profile a more complete evaluation before I modified it significantly.

Cliff does things to knives, that nobody needs to do to their knives.

Yes :

"Fehrman Knives... Fierce Tools!
Our line of knives are considered Hard-Use Wilderness/Survival type knives. "

Hard to imagine where there would be a need to chop or split wood with a hard use wilderness/survival knife.

I think that he should test knives more in accordance with their intended purposes ...

I discussed the knives in email with the maker before I bought it, and specifically noted why I wanted that blade in particular and that I intended it mainly as a large wood working blade. Plus that geometry would not preclude the work I did as I noted in the review as I have several blades which are thinner and more acute at the edge which have done it without problem.

-Cliff

 

[bigbcustom]

Cliff,

Have you had occassion to test, or at least work with, a "final judgement"?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Have you had occassion to test, or at least work with, a "final judgement"?

No, I bought the Extreme Judgement mainly as I was interested in the steel as my previous experience with it was disappointing in regards to strength, lots of toughness, but it bent far too easily. Considering how easily the Extreme Judgement both bent and chipped I don't have much incentive to go buy another one. I might try 3V in a custom after discussing the heat treating with Landes recently, but in general a high wear resistance in that class of blade has little to no value.

If you just cut clean woods then you can cut pretty much all day even with even a medium carbon steel because wood simply isn't very abrasive, it takes a long time to wear down the edge even on a properly sharpened machete. For that class of blade I am more interested in steels like S5, L6-bainite, 1065, etc. . These will all allow very high hardness with extreme toughness and thus minimize damage from fracture and distortion while maintaining a high grindability.

The edges I run are also far thinner and more acute than Fehrman grinds, had the Judgement's primary grind not failed I would have eventually reground the blade to match the bevels I run which are about 8 degrees at the shoulder and sweep down to about 14 degrees in the last 1/64" or so.

I usually do runs of 1000 chops on seasoned felled wood just to reduce the sharpness to the point where I can notice blades slipping a little slicing newsprint and the better blades at this point often won't show any damage even under 10X magnification. This is in controlled runs in the yard bucking felled wood to burn. When just clearing brush and such it is unusual to cut that long without hitting dirt or rock so generally you are sharpening usually just to restore the edge from hard impact damage. The high wear steels are then just harder to grind.

Possum has also discussed this subject in detail based on using a large blade for brush work on a farm.

I disagree with many things he does ...

The reviews are rarely intended to just evaluate the knives. I work with knives so I can understand geometry and steel and I generally have lots of such work to do and enjoy the time outdoors so I will fell wood with an axe and limb with long blades rather than use a chainsaw for example. There are some reviews which are mainly comparative like this :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/hardware_axe.html

But many reviews contain work which isn't done to rank the knife specifically as much as it is to just explore an aspect of the steel or the geometry. Plus often I'll look at an aspect which someone is interested in even if I am not, so they are not simply a representation of what I think a knife should do.

What is ironic is that many people constantly refer to things like the concrete block impacts in the reviews in a very negative manner but ignore the many makers using this same work for years to promote their knives and also ignore the fact that the first time I did it was specifically on request from a maker, as it was several times after that.

-Cliff

 

[bigbcustom]

Cliff, I was not attacking you in any way, shape, or form as I am sure you can infer from my previous post. I enjoy reading your reviews, learn something from nearly every one of them, but I don't neccessarily agree with your evaluation criteria. I understand your reasons, and respect your opinions....I just don't agree with your methods all the time. Please don't think I am attacking you. I think 3V has the potential to be an excellent knife steel, it could be that you got a bad ht, or it could be that it is new enough that the best ht hasn't been figured out yet...I don't know. RJ Martin, a metalurgist, loves 3V, and I bet his blades would show the best available ht on it...it would be interesting to see how they did in the torture chamber. I will be buying a fehrman knife fairly soon, so, until then, I can't say for certain how I will feel. As I stated in my first post, I don't/haven't owned one of these, so I can only go by what I have read, spoken to Eric about, infer based on other's ovservations, and deduce using my intellect and common sense. The kind of argument I am making based on the aforementioned foundations cannot be irrevokably supported without first hand observation beyond the initial espousal so I will cease and desist in it until such time as I have blade in hand.

Cliff, you have taken pieces of my earlier post out of context in your rebuttals, and you haven't commented on the rest....if you have misunderstood my previous statement to be an attack or disparaging monologue impuning your credibility, please disabuse yourself of that notion.

Brian

 

[Cliff Stamp]

if you have misunderstood my previous statement to be an attack or disparaging monologue ...

Not really, just attempting to clearify why the reviews contain the things they do as I wasn't sure as to the nature of your disagreement. If you have critisms of the methods or conclusions reached then by all means make them. Clearity is always an issue they need a glossary of some terms and a lot of it could be written more clearly. I think they are decent now with obvious room for improvement, but I pretty much always think that and then in a year or so I think they were actually quite crude. This is always the case when you learn about something.

One area they are quite lacking is in regards to relative qualifiers like "forceful chopping". I know what these mean because I did them but even if I actually give estimates for impact energy how many people know if 75 ft.lbs is a lot or a little. It would be more helpful if there were a few short video clips which would allow people to judge if the force used was more/less than they are likely to need/want to apply. Plus it would also add simply to the entertainment value because most people who are into knives tend to enjoy watching them in action.

Yeah, I'd like to work with a R.J. Martin Pathfinder at some point in the future as well. Both for the steel, the actual blade shape, and to work with one of R.J.'s edges because I want to measure the initial sharpness and the blunting responce. I'd probably see if I could convince him to extend the design to a 12"-14" blade as I generally find that more productive for brush work. Beyond that length there tends to be little knife ability retained but below that I find there is not enough reach for limbing and similar work.

-Cliff

 

[MVF]

Cliff, I also did not mean anything negative- only that with this knife I don't see myself using it that hard. I learn a lot (or try to) from your reviews and, if anything, stand in awe of the amount of thought and work that you put into them.

I didn't know that this was a shock steel and am actually surprised to hear it since most of the positive reviews of Fehrmans that I have seen seem to focus on edge retention.

I would definitely like to see a video of your testing- too cool!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I didn't know that this was a shock steel ...

It is designed as a mold steel for plastics where high resistance to chipping is needed and you need more wear resistance than traditional high shock steels. This is why on paper it looks good for a hard use blade which still wants some wear resistance for extended cutting at low sharpness. But if you are not going to be subjecting the steel to high shocks then other steels would be more optimal because that is one of the fundamental design goals. Considering that Fehrman seems to have a market which extends into lighter cutting he should offer some designs, or similar ones, in CPM-M4 which is likely to soon become a "hot" steel as several makers are starting to push it currently. This doesn't have the same toughness of 3V but offers a higher hardness and significantly greater wear resistance.

I would definitely like to see a video of your testing ...

I'd actually like to have a record myself because at times I find myself wondering just how hard I was swinging a blade 4-5 years ago when trying to benchmark current blades against ones used in the past.

-Cliff

 

[trailside22]

I have 2 Fehrman's a Peacemaker and a Last Chance. There will be more Fehrmans in the future. I really like both knives. There fit and finish are great and I have been impressed with the steel. I have batoned the LC through oak, hickory and pine knots with out any chipping or rolling of the edge. I really like the Peacemaker for skinning deer and work around camp. It holds an edge very well and I have not had any problems with rust. I don't believe you can wrong with a Fehrman.

 

[BOBO]

I was also a little apprehensive about Fehrman knives. So While I was deployed, I ordered a Thru Hiker, which promptly got lost in the mail. The folks at Fehrman Knives researched the order, couldn't find the knife, and sent me a new one. Great customer service! When I deployed again, this time to a desert landscape, I found some of the hard wood that grows in that region and tested the Thru Hiker on it. It held up to wood batoning that broke an older model Strider in half. The knife was short bladed, but kept an edge and didn't break. And cost about $100. The Strider cost my team mate $245 and was a thicker, longer blade. It was made of ATS-34. But I believe that you will be happy with the Fehrman. My 2 cents.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I found some of the hard wood that grows in that region and tested the Thru Hiker on it. It held up to wood batoning that broke an older model Strider in half.

How did the Strider break exactly, was it just being hammered on by another piece of wood? What was the reaction by Strider Knives?

-Cliff

 

[BOBO]

Cliff, sorry for the late reply to this thread. I lost touch with it! The Strider was one of the earlier tanto style blades with the cord wrapped handle, approx. 6" blade. And I was batoning with a piece of wood that was from the same tree into a limb from that tree. The blade broke about 2" from the tip. My buddy was alittle put out, but he said that the company had a great rep for blade replacement. I never followed up on the outcome of that knife. I was showing him the benefits of batoning with my Busse SFNO, and he wanted to see if the tanto could be used for similiar tasks. And it broke. I also tested some other blades (some with ATS-34) that held up very well and that led me to believe that the knife had some defect in the blade material.

 

[Kloneducci]

Cliff, sorry for the late reply to this thread. I lost touch with it! The Strider was one of the earlier tanto style blades with the cord wrapped handle, approx. 6" blade. And I was batoning with a piece of wood that was from the same tree into a limb from that tree. The blade broke about 2" from the tip. My buddy was alittle put out, but he said that the company had a great rep for blade replacement. I never followed up on the outcome of that knife. I was showing him the benefits of batoning with my Busse SFNO, and he wanted to see if the tanto could be used for similiar tasks. And it broke. I also tested some other blades (some with ATS-34) that held up very well and that led me to believe that the knife had some defect in the blade material.

could you expand on how much batoning you did with it..

 

[xanax]

Not really, just attempting to clearify why the reviews contain the things they do as I wasn't sure as to the nature of your disagreement. If you have critisms of the methods or conclusions reached then by all means make them. Clearity is always an issue they need a glossary of some terms and a lot of it could be written more clearly. I think they are decent now with obvious room for improvement, but I pretty much always think that and then in a year or so I think they were actually quite crude. This is always the case when you learn about something.

One area they are quite lacking is in regards to relative qualifiers like "forceful chopping". I know what these mean because I did them but even if I actually give estimates for impact energy how many people know if 75 ft.lbs is a lot or a little. It would be more helpful if there were a few short video clips which would allow people to judge if the force used was more/less than they are likely to need/want to apply. Plus it would also add simply to the entertainment value because most people who are into knives tend to enjoy watching them in action.

Yeah, I'd like to work with a R.J. Martin Pathfinder at some point in the future as well. Both for the steel, the actual blade shape, and to work with one of R.J.'s edges because I want to measure the initial sharpness and the blunting responce. I'd probably see if I could convince him to extend the design to a 12"-14" blade as I generally find that more productive for brush work. Beyond that length there tends to be little knife ability retained but below that I find there is not enough reach for limbing and similar work.

-Cliff

I almost bought that knife several times. The only thing that stopped me was I wish the blade was wider and full flat grind. It cost around 750.00 I think so I passed but it sure looks nice.

 

[Cobalt]

that sure is a beauty

 

[BOBO]

Kloneducci, the blade was struck approx. 20 times (as I recall)when it broke. I had batoned through the limb top to bottom, and was going through a knot when it fractured. The blade was not getting full swings as the thickness of the blade was splitting the wood and only required light to medium strikes. I have since used Striders with much better results, and this leads me to believe the steel was flawed.