Fencing: Fancy footwork and lightning wrist action?

[golok]

Every time when the Olympic Games come around, I try to catch the fencing event. Somehow the speed in the matches leave me less than satisfied.

A blur of an action, two guys crossing swords, so to speak, and before you know it, one guy jumping up and down with joy! But I almost didn't see anything.

Most of the time, the hit is so quick, only those sitting near the platform can see where the other guy is hit.

To my eye and mind, it looks like a quick "kill" most of the time.

Does fancy footwork comes into play? Or is it the superfluid wrist action? Or, is it the eye-hand co-ordination that does it? Maybe it's all the above.

Who knows better?

 

[Metis]

i'm told by collegiate fencers that it's speed first and skill second. if you can get your point on line faster, what's your opponent going to do?

some subtle timing games, and a lot of 'powering' through someones guard.

(caveat) so i'm told..

Metis

 

[Architect]

Fencing starts with strategy (mental).

The execution of the strategy includes managment of distance. Relative distance from your opponent and their relative speed of movement dictates the speed of your execution. So.... blinding speed in and of itself is automatically invaluable.

Technique in finishing the execution with the weapon is about precision and calmness under fire. Strength is only valuable as regards stamina. First of all, "powering" through another fencer's guard is barbaric and will get disqualified immmediately. Second, powering through a guard is very very slow, and a decent fencer will eat you alive.

When you see the Olympic-level fencing matches, you have a combination of managed distance, well-timed attacks, and swift yet relatively controlled weapon movement.

Yes, it is very very fast. That is why only the very best referees are able to judge these bouts (and even them, much of the judging is intuitive and thus, often biased toward the more well known competitor).

Regarding point-in-line, it is the rule of right-of-way that effectively says that if you are under attack, you have an obligation to defend yourself before mounting a counter attack (which is mostly what you would do in a real sword encounter). There are exceptions to this (if you can execute a sucessful counter attack before your opponent can complete their attack) but that is not in and of itself a complete strategy.

As an amateur competitive fencer in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have been fortunate enough to bout two of the top five men's foil fencers in the US. Timing and agility are the hallmarks of a sucessful fencer. Feints, placing the blade in attack and replacing before your defense arrives, and using blinding speed only to finish a proper set-up.

Fencing suffers in so far as it is very unfriendly to the casual viewer. It is only well-presented on TV in Europe, where a phalanx of slow-motion cameras surround the fencers and good editing shows you where the action was. We get bootleg TV tapes from Sweden and Italy frequently and they are the best.

 

[Metis]

thanks for the clarification,

being a broadsword fighter, and not grokking 'fencer talk' i was trying to distil what i was told....and i don't know how long they had been fencing, just that they did....

yours sounds better

M

 

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Golok,

Olympic fencing stopped looking like a real fight a long time ago. Check out the modern fencing forum over on SFI. Most modern fencers seem to agree with me.

A Foil is supposed to represent a smallsword. You cannot flick at people and hit them by arching your blade around their guard with a real smallsword. A real smallsword is also stiff enough to provide a security in defence that a modern foil weighed down by an electric tip is not.

Epee is supposed to represent the 19th Century duelling Epee. Epee IMHO is the most realistic of the disciplines. The full body target and the right of way rules in Epee make for a much better fight.

Even so if I thrust you in the belly 1 second before you do the same to me in a real fight then we are both dead.

Sabre is the ultimate joke IMHO. Real sabres need quite a bit more than a finger twitch to get them moving. The olympic sabre is a poor substitute for the Radellian duelling sabre.
Thank goodness Olympic sabre isn't supposed to represent military sabre.

I think that olympic fencers should put on a little more armour, use heavier and more realistic weapons and that we should bring back the backsword, the bayonet and possibly the sporting version of the quarterstaff. The piste should be discarded and bouts should be fought in the round.

Double hits regardless of time frame should result in loss of points for both competitors. Somebody who has just scored should either thrust in opposition to close the line of counterattack or strike and fly out.
Just my .02 as a serious historical fencer.
Cheers
Stu.

 

[Alidisaster]

I'm a newbe to fencing - just started foil classes. What really struck me last night was how important footwork speed was. We did an exercise where only one person had a foil - and could attack at any time. I'm pretty quick on my feet and my opponent just couldn't touch me - even when I stayed really close.
Regarding "powering through guards". I don't know quite how you could do this - the foil blades are really bendy - the parry is done with the stiff part near the hilt, and you don't need much wrist strength to deflect the bendy 1st third of the blade.
I haven't seen any really good fencers bout yet - just messy beginners. A lot of people seem to ignore the 'straight arm' rule (in foil, your arm must be straight in order to gain 'right-of-way' in an attack), and just poke away at each other. If the blades had points on them, I don't think they would do this . . .
I think a 'real' duel would look a bit more like foil fencing done 'properly'. You wouldn't launch an attack unless you were <i>sure</i> you had dealt with your opponents blade.

 

[Architect]

Alidisaster - the "point-in-line" rule has been changed. A straight arm is NOT required. Now, in order to have right of way, you need only present a threatening gesture, with the point being the threat and within distance (i.e., a two-tempo movement to complete).

However, a straight, fully extended arm is the clearest way to declare and attack, and the easiest for a referee to interpret.

Stuart - yes, the flexible blades (in foil and epee) undermine proper technique. There have been a few changes made - stiffening the epee, lengthening the time a "flick" of the point has to be depressed to be counted as a touch. But...the trend of flicking the foil in particular can only be driven back slowly over time, as the major competitors and coaches developed this style and have invested their careers in it.

However, modern fencing will not devolve into a psuedo-battle style. It is a sport; psuedo battle-style is a fantasy.

 

[komondor]

The secret to fencing is the total fearlessness of being poked in the chest with a pointy stick.